25p official topic, aka Don't cry for me Argentina

driftwood

@Vitaliy_Kiselev 'checking' the 1080 progressive patch in Patches for Testers, 60i correctly converts to 29.97fps without problems on recordings. The 50i (still) dies at 1 second into the recording. Are there any other pointers do you have which could help resolve before I begin my marathon test thru of all the settings?

fatpig

i think vitaliy will understand the hint... "left an opening for support" :)

kazuo

i live in PAL land, and much though I wish to see 25p become a reality on the GH2, my guess is that Pana will not put it in the upcoming patch. Why should they? They know of the hack, and the possibility of shooting AF102 in the foot if they make GH2 25p.

belfryman

Anyone else had this? When I tick the conversion from 50fps to 25fps in ptools the video, as transferred within final cut pro, is in slow motion, while the audio is at normal speed. If I use aunsoft to convert instead it's OK, though audio about 3 frames out of sync. If I just up the 720p bit rate and don't check the conversion to 25p the footage is normal speed when transferred with fcp. It's probably been mentioned before but can't find it with search.

Tomaso

@mrbill On the other hand, it does NOT say it won't come.
"We should keep our fingers crossed!" ... "one day may be" I would not have said that if nothing was going on.

Nik_N

Let's write PETITION! Let realize 25p!!!

mrbill

That answer doesn't suggest 25p is coming anytime soon

Tomaso

I posted a question to the QA at http://ifa.panasonic.eu/en

My question was: ”I understand that a new firmware release for GH2 will be released supporting the features in the X-lenses. Will also 25p be supported?”

The new firmware was kind of confirmed. As I understand it that firmware will probably not include 25p, but they left an opening for support in a firmware later on.

You can se the answer her: http://ifa.panasonic.eu/en?questionid=q_1315231134248

_gl

> Old fashioned type interlacing artefacts

@Skeptikal sure, but that's because it's an interlaced mode : ). It's not a defect specific to the GH2 implementation (except that we all want interlaced to die die die already).

'PsF' = true 25p 'wrapped' in 50i, so yeah that would be fine.

Skeptikal

@_gl

For me the problem with the 50i on the GH2 is more noticeable not on static shots, but when there is movement. Old fashioned type interlacing artefacts...not a problem on GH1's PsF which I use all the time since it's more stable than enabling 25p. Also PsF is so easy to de-interlace in most NLE's.

Even if Pana didn't give us 25p...why not at least PsF? Maybe in new Firmware which is coming soon...

_gl

I _think_ I know what's going on - 1080i has no sharpening enabled.

Check the attached screengrabs (sharp -2):

1 = 1080/24p
2 = 1080/60i (fields woven)

60i looks lower-res right? Except I don't think so:

3 = same as 2, but with Unsharp masking applied in Photoshop (90%, 0.5pixel). Looks almost identical right?

Ever since the recent PTool bitrate advances, I've been loving the extra quality, but found the image too sharp. Even with -2 the image is still being sharpened. I suspect the in-camera sharpening only works on progressive images, and/or requires too much processing power for the high fps modes, so they just disable it. (the vertical aspect weirdness might be due a subtle timing difference in the interlaced sensor setup, or some bug they can fix).

So the interlaced modes could be showing us what the sensor actually outputs. (either way I really hope 24p sharpening can be completely disabled in a future hack as it's just too harsh now with all the extra bitrate).

_gl

@zigizigi, @Skeptikal, I'm not convinced these image samples are accurate, if they are screenshots then we could be seeing the results of whatever deinterlacing the player or graphics card driver applied. It's even possible that the interlaced shot is just a single field, expanded to fill the frame (that would explain the softness). Only extracted raw frames would be valid, the interlaced top & bottom fields would have to be weaved to restore the full resolution the sensor is outputting.

Unfortunately I can't access my tripod at the moment, is anybody willing to run a test?

Skeptikal

If we end up with 25p in the form of a true progressive segmented file / wrapper (as in the case of the GH1) I'll be happy.

The current 50i mode in the GH2 is virtually unusable IMHO...I don't understand why they even bothered implementing it in the first place. It does an otherwise nice camera an injustice.

zigizigi

It's not the matter of progressive vs interlace preferences, it's just that 50i mode in GH2 is crippled on the sensor level in terms of apparent resolution and weird picture aspect ratio compared to 24p.

It's been discussed. Just take a look and see for yourselves. These snapshots have been posted here somewhere, can't remember where and by whom, I just saved the links.

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/00011mts0009tpzsfhjkv.jpg
http://img4.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/00012mts000y09uceo5p3.jpg

So if they take progressive 50p straight out of the sensor in so called 50i mode it doesn't change anything - the picture will still be soft and squeezed compared to 24p. It's low level.

mrbill

@zigizigi - can I ask what kind of work you do that 50i renders the gh2 'useless' to you?

_gl

@zigizigi, it doesn't matter if it's wrapped in 50i - it's still true 25p and you just drop it on a 25p timeline. The 50i wrapping is only a tag on the AVCHD stream so it stays within the specs.

zigizigi

The big question is what kind of 25p it's gonna be? Low level implementation similar to 24p or just a new codec wrapper in 50i mode. The softness of 50i mode renders it useless to me, but full resolution 25p sensor output will be a game changer.

valdi99

@ Vitaliy
> Panasonic recently mentioned in interview that they'll be coming
> with firmware update, most probably it'll have 25p, as I understand.

I expect they will include in a fw update what you have worked out already. They should pay you!

Felix

There seems to be a lot of 24p development and 1080 50p seems out of the question but what can be done to "Super" enhance the 720 - 50p? - there are so many people hungry for a PAL friendly option - Is a 50+Mbit option possible?

Grunf

@Jon2323

It's roughly the same codec-wise (IPPPPPPIPPPPP) when bitrate is turned upp unless you turn on the B-frames for GH2. With B-frames, it's substantially better, especially at "prudent" bitrates around 35Mbit.

Unfortunately, turning on the B-frames means that you need to record 1080p24 for a second before using 720p in order to "condition" the camera. Probably some function call that needs to be made.

otcx

@Vitaliy_Kiselev

If/when you start working with 25p pach i can join the striketeam.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Panasonic recently mentioned in interview that they'll be coming with firmware update, most probably it'll have 25p, as I understand.

otcx

FieldsKit in AE do werry good job turning 50i to 25p.
Sill extra job in workflow.

Jon2323

Hi Guys,
How does the GH2 720p 50P hacked footage compare to the GH1 720p 50p hacked footage? I'm looking for reason to get a GH2. How much of an improvement are the low light capabilities? Cheers, Jon

Nik_N

I'll be looking forward to Vitali and believe that he still finds a way to include 1080p25 1080p50 or.
I suggest all to make a financial contribution in favor of Vitali, maybe it's how you can help him!

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