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US: Default Comedy
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  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    @Bueller

    I am interested how this is related to this topic?
  • BuellerBueller
    Here is a nice experiment to try with some of your friends, even the most "educated" ones.

    1.Draw a long line.
    2. At one end put a 0
    3. At the other end put 1 Billion
    4. Hand them the pencil and ask them to mark where they think 1 million is on the line.

    Good Luck
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @Skep
    >>>You need not look beyond the USA if you are talking about political corruption/cronyism and social/legal disfunctionality>>>>>

    I know all about that. I lived in SE Asia for a long time. My only reply would be to Americans who think the same thing isn't going on under our noses in the USA. Big Business owns our political system. That's corruption as clearly that's not the intent of the founding fathers. The Supreme Court recently decided that Business counts as a person and can give virtually unlimited money to political campaigns.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    @brianluce

    For me it doesn't look like simple cycle.
    I also don't see statistics that prove that point of view.

    Following thing explains why so much stimulus had been required and so little effect archieved.
    image
    debt.jpg
    680 x 527 - 67K
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @B3
    <<<the cycle is the problem. it shouldn't be a cycle, but the way it's done right now that's exactly what it is. >>>>

    It is a cycle. The misery, impoverishment, ignorance, and apathy fester. They won't go away. And again, the least cost effective way to deal with it is building prisons.
  • SkeptikalSkeptikal
    A good point. Unfortunately in many countries (where I live also) science is not taken seriously as far as funding is concerned. It is also becoming a poor career choice. Having a PhD in science isn't what it used to be...
  • jamesgh2jamesgh2
    The President's Office has a similar budget to that of the National Science Foundation. Which both are only a grain of sand compared to defense. It has clearly gone out of control. If they spent 30% of the defense budget on science it would probably make the US the default economic superpower for at least another 100years with true innovation.
  • SkeptikalSkeptikal
    "It would be a mistake to underestimate the abilities of either man and to presume that they are mere creations of the American government. The Shah of Iran is a different matter. "

    An intelligent reply...of course I was purposely oversimplifying things, but the US Govt does have a poor track record of supporting Political criminals and despots...and then either turning on them (when they no longer play along) or hanging them (and their population) out to dry (I saw this first hand in Cambodia).

    brianluce:

    You need not look beyond the USA if you are talking about political corruption/cronyism and social/legal disfunctionality. What's worse is when...using the guise of patriotism and the gullibility of the average citizen...this is used to start illegal wars (e.g. Gulf of Tonkin "incident"/Vietnam; "weapons of mass delusion"/Iraq)...activity which warrants a few appearances at the Hague War Crimes tribunal.
  • B3GuyB3Guy
    the cycle is the problem. it shouldn't be a cycle, but the way it's done right now that's exactly what it is.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @MrAnthony,
    So food stamps and fetid housing projects, crappy health care are equal the American dream? No one in America lives large on welfare. It's a lousy, demoralizing cycle of misery.
    What would you do with the lower class? Machine gun them? Let them starve on the streets? More prisons? Oh wait, I know, let them eat cake!
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @skeptical
    the average wage in china, as of the most recent figures, is about $180/month (USD)
    And the legal system is virtually non existent. Here's but one example of how corrupt and dysfunctional it is: Many of the freighter hijacked in the South China Sea and Straight of Molucca are taken to China, where they're greeted at dockside by the Chinese government.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @MrAnthony
    If you care about money and protecting your piece of the pie, the stupidest thing you could do is defund schools. That will insure a permanent underclass that will continue to place a burden upon the country. Much cheaper to invest in people rather than build more prisons -- the least cost effective way to deal with social problems.
  • B3GuyB3Guy
    An important thing to understand about my view is that I feel there are things the government should facilitate and other things that are the responsibility of good people. It should be up to the more fortunate in our country to help out the less fortunate, I completely agree. I would not say that the all wealthy deserve more than all the poor or that they worked harder. But the government shouldn't be a middleman for that interaction. They waste huge resources facilitating this transfer, and I still say they're horribly inefficient at it. They make it impersonal and each individual situation does not get proper attention.

    I have relatives I love very much who I've watched ride the system for years. I love 'em to pieces, but they get help from our hard-earned tax money, make stupid decisions, hit rock bottom, then ride the system up a bit again, only to mess up and hit bottom again. They just aren't responsible with what is given to them.

    They don't want to work because of countless excuses. "night ours suck", "manual labor sucks", "the pay is too low", etc. etc. My father came to this country 30 years ago at 16, lived without his parents, got himself thru highschool, worked multiple minimum wage jobs and paid for his own college. He did good work, and was promoted several times mostly for his work ethic. Then these same relatives came to this country and lived in our house for over a year, 20+ people in a 3 bedroom house, with my father the only one working.

    I and may not make it back to college this next year because of this same system. My father is recently unemployed, so naturally, one would think I would get Federal aid. But my father, being a wise man, has decided to pull his retirement funds to pay for our house so that he owns it outright. And what does he get for saving his money and using it reasonably and responsibly? The feds count this as "income" when evaluating my financial situation, and say I don't get aid because of my dad's increased "income".

    Sure, the system works it theory, but I still say its too complex and often it screws things up. As for Bin Laden, go SEALS! Naturally, the government cannot be expected to be transparent about all programs. And I'm not talking about "private sector" running these systems, I'm talking about Average Joe helping out Average Joe.
  • MrAnthonyMrAnthony
    >>hang on...wasn't he the stooge that the same government helped create...along with that other former goon in Iraq?

    No, that would like saying the U.S. helped to attack itself on 9/11 because Boeing made the airplanes. bin Laden was anti-foreign and was only one of a number of anti-Soviet mujahideen leaders funded through the Pakistani intelligence services by the CIA. Since bin Laden was independently wealthy himself (he comes from a billionaire family), he paid for much of what he wanted, especially since the idea of anyone foreign on Arab lands was abhorrent to him. His anti-U.S. fervor is based in part on his hatred for American bases in Saudi Arabia.

    As for Saddam, undoubtedly he was involved in a U.S.-backed plot in 1959 to kill General Qasim, who himself had overthrown Faisal II of Iraq. But to say we created him would be to exaggerate Saddam's own ambition and drive; he had always fancied himself as the leader of a Pan-Arabic Islamic state, particularly after the Israelis won the six-day war and the death of Nasser in 1970. Saddam was very, very good at getting what he wanted by playing off everyone, and frankly his political skill is apparent in his manipulation of the CIA and in his ability as a Sunni to lead a majority Shi'ite country. Most of the modern advances in Iraq are due directly to his efforts along with the oil revenue.

    It would be a mistake to underestimate the abilities of either man and to presume that they are mere creations of the American government. The Shah of Iran is a different matter.
  • SkeptikalSkeptikal
    "And another myth is that Government can't run things. Think the private sector could have taken out Bin Laden? That wasn't Acme Security Inc that blew Osama's head off. The was US Navy Seal Team 6. Your government."

    Misson accomplished...stand up and salute...

    But hang on...wasn't he the stooge that the same government helped create...along with that other former goon in Iraq?

    "China is a slave state without a legal system."

    What crap...I've worked/lived in China over the last 12 years. The middle class is doing very well indeed ...for slaves. Safest place in the world...and no gun nutters roaming the streets at night. I'd say the legal system seems to work...unlike the US prison Gulag/money making "Justice" system.
  • MrAnthonyMrAnthony
    @brianluce: Bull. As of 2008, the top 5% incomes paid about 58.72% of the personal income tax; the bottom 50% of incomes paid less than 2.7% of personal income taxes. B3 Guy is correct that those people who work hard are having their money given to people who don't have incomes.
    Source: http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

    Remember that things like schooling and free medical care are given to illegal immigrants. If an illegal immigrant shows up at a hospital, they aren't turning that person away. Hospitals near the border see pregnant illegal aliens all the time and births are *very* expensive. Who is going to pay for that?

    Supreme Court decisions require that illegal aliens must get schooling; I recall seeing film of illegal aliens in the 1970s going through a hole in the fence from Mexico to stand at American school bus stops to go to an American school. Who pays for that?

    The U.S. takes in something like 275,000 refugees a year and they are immediately eligible for all sorts of social benefits, from aid to families with dependent children to Supplemental Security Income. Factor in the fraud associated with asylees/refugees (e.g. people who make false claims to such status) and then get in and make claims for benefits...more outgoing money. Who pays for that?

    We've just wasted about a trillion dollars on a stimulus that didn't do anything except create temporary jobs without creating hardly anything of lasting value. Taxes will go up by half a trillion dollars to pay for 32 million people's health care. It wasn't properly funded, so likely, it will also probably increase the deficit by another half a trillion.

    Yes, there are some things only government can do, like fight wars, build aircraft carriers, and take out a target at the other end of the world. But there are some things, like taking money from one group and giving it to another, that the government should be more careful about. And certainly, government should be very careful about deficit spending for programs we cannot afford. That's how we got into this mess.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @B3
    That's Tea Party Propaganda. No one is giving the American Dream to slackers on a platter unless your idea of the American dream is a Federal Housing project. Been in one? I have, they're not nice places.

    And another myth is that Government can't run things. Think the private sector could have taken out Bin Laden? That wasn't Acme Security Inc that blew Osama's head off. The was US Navy Seal Team 6. Your government.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    The more I look into this comedy the less I like it.

    US goverment is up to something. Something like controlled default.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    >The current system is set up to facilitate equality, not fairness. In order to facilitate all this, massive systems have been put in place and run by the government.

    It is fucking bad idea. Equality is that still holds the system.
  • B3GuyB3Guy
    my main gripe with the USofA federal weenies is that it is all out of control and they're not willing to cut back. Somewhere along the line, the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was thought of as "free life, liberty and pursuit of happiness", which led to a big mess. Sure people have a right to those things, but that doesn't mean they should get it for free. The feds have all these systems set up for evening the playing field, giving slackers "the american dream" by taking from those who worked hard on their own to attain it. As far as I'm concerned, government should protect those who participate in it, and facilitate fairness. The current system is set up to facilitate equality, not fairness. In order to facilitate all this, massive systems have been put in place and run by the government. (and we all know how efficient the government is at running things.)
  • ButtButt
    @Vitaliy
    >Welche Gewinne hat US-Unternehmen zu machen? Schau Ölverträge, Bau-, Dienstleistungs-, Transport-Verträge im Irak. Wenn US-Unternehmen bekommen Öl für 15 $ / b und verkaufen Öl für 100 $ / b macht es durchaus großen Gewinn< Yes!!!

    @Bueller

    only loans against security
  • BuellerBueller
    So what are we going to do about it?
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @danyyyel
    <<<<br />What China has today is the most formidable economic machine. A capitalist economy with a dictatorship political system... supposed communist. So they, the government can rule on the market to attain certain goal. They can direct the market to where they want it to go. They could starve half their population if need be to compete against the rest of the world>>>>

    And that's probably why China will falter. Economies that are managed to that extent usually fail. China is a slave state without a legal system. My money is on India
  • danyyyeldanyyyel
    The problem is that people don't want to hear the truth and I mean everybody not only American. To a different level if a politician comes to another country where they drive 2500cc cars and tell them that they will tax it a lot for them to drive 1500cc ones they won't vote for him. So the politician just borrows the money and so on and so on until the country goes bankrupt (very simple analogy :-) ) When you think that most of the dept of the USA is held by China... it is staggering.

    In the end as I said before America could end again with a conservative government that will play on the pride patriotism and religion. Again taking the example in my previous post if you went in a temple in Ancient Egypt and Rome the priest would have told you that their gods would have protected their empire until nowadays and for ever.

    What China has today is the most formidable economic machine. A capitalist economy with a dictatorship political system... supposed communist. So they, the government can rule on the market to attain certain goal. They can direct the market to where they want it to go. They could starve half their population if need be to compete against the rest of the world.
  • brianlucebrianluce
    @dannnyel
    >>>>>If all American divided their car centimeter cube by two how much money their country would save. Does people need 3000/4000 cc cars to drive most of the time alone or two person. >>>>>>

    Hah sorry, our cars are usually bigger than 3-4000! Sad but true.

    I have a 3000 cc minivan because I drive my kids around, and that's considered a small engine.

    And if we're stupid enough to elect another republican president, we deserve the pain that will result.
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