US: Default Comedy

B3Guy

my main gripe with the USofA federal weenies is that it is all out of control and they're not willing to cut back. Somewhere along the line, the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was thought of as "free life, liberty and pursuit of happiness", which led to a big mess. Sure people have a right to those things, but that doesn't mean they should get it for free. The feds have all these systems set up for evening the playing field, giving slackers "the american dream" by taking from those who worked hard on their own to attain it. As far as I'm concerned, government should protect those who participate in it, and facilitate fairness. The current system is set up to facilitate equality, not fairness. In order to facilitate all this, massive systems have been put in place and run by the government. (and we all know how efficient the government is at running things.)

Vitaliy_Kiselev

>The current system is set up to facilitate equality, not fairness. In order to facilitate all this, massive systems have been put in place and run by the government.

It is fucking bad idea. Equality is that still holds the system.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

The more I look into this comedy the less I like it.

US goverment is up to something. Something like controlled default.

brianluce

@B3
That's Tea Party Propaganda. No one is giving the American Dream to slackers on a platter unless your idea of the American dream is a Federal Housing project. Been in one? I have, they're not nice places.

And another myth is that Government can't run things. Think the private sector could have taken out Bin Laden? That wasn't Acme Security Inc that blew Osama's head off. The was US Navy Seal Team 6. Your government.

MrAnthony

@brianluce: Bull. As of 2008, the top 5% incomes paid about 58.72% of the personal income tax; the bottom 50% of incomes paid less than 2.7% of personal income taxes. B3 Guy is correct that those people who work hard are having their money given to people who don't have incomes.
Source: http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Remember that things like schooling and free medical care are given to illegal immigrants. If an illegal immigrant shows up at a hospital, they aren't turning that person away. Hospitals near the border see pregnant illegal aliens all the time and births are *very* expensive. Who is going to pay for that?

Supreme Court decisions require that illegal aliens must get schooling; I recall seeing film of illegal aliens in the 1970s going through a hole in the fence from Mexico to stand at American school bus stops to go to an American school. Who pays for that?

The U.S. takes in something like 275,000 refugees a year and they are immediately eligible for all sorts of social benefits, from aid to families with dependent children to Supplemental Security Income. Factor in the fraud associated with asylees/refugees (e.g. people who make false claims to such status) and then get in and make claims for benefits...more outgoing money. Who pays for that?

We've just wasted about a trillion dollars on a stimulus that didn't do anything except create temporary jobs without creating hardly anything of lasting value. Taxes will go up by half a trillion dollars to pay for 32 million people's health care. It wasn't properly funded, so likely, it will also probably increase the deficit by another half a trillion.

Yes, there are some things only government can do, like fight wars, build aircraft carriers, and take out a target at the other end of the world. But there are some things, like taking money from one group and giving it to another, that the government should be more careful about. And certainly, government should be very careful about deficit spending for programs we cannot afford. That's how we got into this mess.

Skeptikal

"And another myth is that Government can't run things. Think the private sector could have taken out Bin Laden? That wasn't Acme Security Inc that blew Osama's head off. The was US Navy Seal Team 6. Your government."

Misson accomplished...stand up and salute...

But hang on...wasn't he the stooge that the same government helped create...along with that other former goon in Iraq?

"China is a slave state without a legal system."

What crap...I've worked/lived in China over the last 12 years. The middle class is doing very well indeed ...for slaves. Safest place in the world...and no gun nutters roaming the streets at night. I'd say the legal system seems to work...unlike the US prison Gulag/money making "Justice" system.

MrAnthony

>>hang on...wasn't he the stooge that the same government helped create...along with that other former goon in Iraq?

No, that would like saying the U.S. helped to attack itself on 9/11 because Boeing made the airplanes. bin Laden was anti-foreign and was only one of a number of anti-Soviet mujahideen leaders funded through the Pakistani intelligence services by the CIA. Since bin Laden was independently wealthy himself (he comes from a billionaire family), he paid for much of what he wanted, especially since the idea of anyone foreign on Arab lands was abhorrent to him. His anti-U.S. fervor is based in part on his hatred for American bases in Saudi Arabia.

As for Saddam, undoubtedly he was involved in a U.S.-backed plot in 1959 to kill General Qasim, who himself had overthrown Faisal II of Iraq. But to say we created him would be to exaggerate Saddam's own ambition and drive; he had always fancied himself as the leader of a Pan-Arabic Islamic state, particularly after the Israelis won the six-day war and the death of Nasser in 1970. Saddam was very, very good at getting what he wanted by playing off everyone, and frankly his political skill is apparent in his manipulation of the CIA and in his ability as a Sunni to lead a majority Shi'ite country. Most of the modern advances in Iraq are due directly to his efforts along with the oil revenue.

It would be a mistake to underestimate the abilities of either man and to presume that they are mere creations of the American government. The Shah of Iran is a different matter.

B3Guy

An important thing to understand about my view is that I feel there are things the government should facilitate and other things that are the responsibility of good people. It should be up to the more fortunate in our country to help out the less fortunate, I completely agree. I would not say that the all wealthy deserve more than all the poor or that they worked harder. But the government shouldn't be a middleman for that interaction. They waste huge resources facilitating this transfer, and I still say they're horribly inefficient at it. They make it impersonal and each individual situation does not get proper attention.

I have relatives I love very much who I've watched ride the system for years. I love 'em to pieces, but they get help from our hard-earned tax money, make stupid decisions, hit rock bottom, then ride the system up a bit again, only to mess up and hit bottom again. They just aren't responsible with what is given to them.

They don't want to work because of countless excuses. "night ours suck", "manual labor sucks", "the pay is too low", etc. etc. My father came to this country 30 years ago at 16, lived without his parents, got himself thru highschool, worked multiple minimum wage jobs and paid for his own college. He did good work, and was promoted several times mostly for his work ethic. Then these same relatives came to this country and lived in our house for over a year, 20+ people in a 3 bedroom house, with my father the only one working.

I and may not make it back to college this next year because of this same system. My father is recently unemployed, so naturally, one would think I would get Federal aid. But my father, being a wise man, has decided to pull his retirement funds to pay for our house so that he owns it outright. And what does he get for saving his money and using it reasonably and responsibly? The feds count this as "income" when evaluating my financial situation, and say I don't get aid because of my dad's increased "income".

Sure, the system works it theory, but I still say its too complex and often it screws things up. As for Bin Laden, go SEALS! Naturally, the government cannot be expected to be transparent about all programs. And I'm not talking about "private sector" running these systems, I'm talking about Average Joe helping out Average Joe.

brianluce

@MrAnthony
If you care about money and protecting your piece of the pie, the stupidest thing you could do is defund schools. That will insure a permanent underclass that will continue to place a burden upon the country. Much cheaper to invest in people rather than build more prisons -- the least cost effective way to deal with social problems.

brianluce

@skeptical
the average wage in china, as of the most recent figures, is about $180/month (USD)
And the legal system is virtually non existent. Here's but one example of how corrupt and dysfunctional it is: Many of the freighter hijacked in the South China Sea and Straight of Molucca are taken to China, where they're greeted at dockside by the Chinese government.

brianluce

@MrAnthony,
So food stamps and fetid housing projects, crappy health care are equal the American dream? No one in America lives large on welfare. It's a lousy, demoralizing cycle of misery.
What would you do with the lower class? Machine gun them? Let them starve on the streets? More prisons? Oh wait, I know, let them eat cake!

B3Guy

the cycle is the problem. it shouldn't be a cycle, but the way it's done right now that's exactly what it is.

Skeptikal

"It would be a mistake to underestimate the abilities of either man and to presume that they are mere creations of the American government. The Shah of Iran is a different matter. "

An intelligent reply...of course I was purposely oversimplifying things, but the US Govt does have a poor track record of supporting Political criminals and despots...and then either turning on them (when they no longer play along) or hanging them (and their population) out to dry (I saw this first hand in Cambodia).

brianluce:

You need not look beyond the USA if you are talking about political corruption/cronyism and social/legal disfunctionality. What's worse is when...using the guise of patriotism and the gullibility of the average citizen...this is used to start illegal wars (e.g. Gulf of Tonkin "incident"/Vietnam; "weapons of mass delusion"/Iraq)...activity which warrants a few appearances at the Hague War Crimes tribunal.

jamesgh2

The President's Office has a similar budget to that of the National Science Foundation. Which both are only a grain of sand compared to defense. It has clearly gone out of control. If they spent 30% of the defense budget on science it would probably make the US the default economic superpower for at least another 100years with true innovation.

Skeptikal

A good point. Unfortunately in many countries (where I live also) science is not taken seriously as far as funding is concerned. It is also becoming a poor career choice. Having a PhD in science isn't what it used to be...

brianluce

@B3
<<<the cycle is the problem. it shouldn't be a cycle, but the way it's done right now that's exactly what it is. >>>>

It is a cycle. The misery, impoverishment, ignorance, and apathy fester. They won't go away. And again, the least cost effective way to deal with it is building prisons.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@brianluce

For me it doesn't look like simple cycle.
I also don't see statistics that prove that point of view.

Following thing explains why so much stimulus had been required and so little effect archieved.

brianluce

@Skep
>>>You need not look beyond the USA if you are talking about political corruption/cronyism and social/legal disfunctionality>>>>>

I know all about that. I lived in SE Asia for a long time. My only reply would be to Americans who think the same thing isn't going on under our noses in the USA. Big Business owns our political system. That's corruption as clearly that's not the intent of the founding fathers. The Supreme Court recently decided that Business counts as a person and can give virtually unlimited money to political campaigns.

Bueller

Here is a nice experiment to try with some of your friends, even the most "educated" ones.

1.Draw a long line.
2. At one end put a 0
3. At the other end put 1 Billion
4. Hand them the pencil and ask them to mark where they think 1 million is on the line.

Good Luck

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@Bueller

I am interested how this is related to this topic?

Bueller

It shows how people's perception of comparing very large numbers is very subjective and usually very wrong. Therefore the lack of the human mind being able to comprehend large numbers in relation to each other makes their importance less noticeable. Which can then possibly be used to extrapolate why people have a hard time understanding the magnitude of very large problems.

ps. Most people put a mark somewhere near the middle when it should be 1/1000th from the 0 mark.

brianluce

@vitaliy
What I mean by "cycle" is that people born to impoverishment and limited education tend to have kids who follow the same pattern. A college education, assuming you can meet the requirements, is about $200,000. There are exceptional people that break the cycle, but more often than not, the cycle spirals outward -- and nowadays tends to suck down people who'd previously lived at middle class levels. It's a big problem and turning a blind eye or building prisons isn't an efficient way to attack it.
This is the common sense behind some of what President Obama wants to do. Are his policies the right ones? I don't know, but these are public policy issues, and we elect our leaders to solve them.

sam_stickland

@Bueller

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-natural-log
http://www.radiolab.org/2009/nov/30/innate-numbers/

The theory is that our natural tenancy is to think of numbers logarithmically and the idea of a fixed integer scale is a learned skill.

Bueller

@sam_stickland

Exactly. Thanks for the links.

B3Guy

@Bueller (sorry, couldn't resist.)

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