Official Low GOP topic, series 3

gameb

@HillTop1 cheers

3hats

I am new here and a little lost. I am trying to find the actual settings needed for the "ReAQuainted Patch"
thanks
Bill

Macalincag

@3hats

http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/953/gh2-patch-vault-most-popular-patches-in-one-place#Item_14

bkmcwd

@HillTop1
OK! I have understood the thing which you want to know. ;-)

As written also above, I have shot on another day.
About a time zone, maybe... possibly it was different for about 2 hours...?

And, it seems that motion blur by vibration has also appeared with the sample of GOP3ZILLA as there was a difference of ON and OFF of OIS considerably.

It is difficult to arrange conditions correctly in move shooting with handheld. :-(

3hats

Macalincag-Thanks
I did find this info, however, I am working on a Mac with wine bottler to view these files. For whatever reason, I can't simply load these presets into ptools to update the settings. User error for sure. So I am just inputting the data manually. It looks like there are 3 settings to deal with for 24P. Bitrate, AQ and GOP. I have set those to 176, AQ3 and GOP1. Is that right or are there other settings? Regardless, my Transcend 32GB class 10 card chokes after a few seconds. I am gathering that Transcend is not the card of choice. At 88mb the transcend is doing fine, though. Sorry for the rookie talk.
thanks

Macalincag

@3hats

http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/22150#Comment_22150

http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/666/ptool-v3.62d-topic/p1

proaudio4

3hats,
To use driftwood's latest reAQuainted patch.
Download the file here: http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/953/gh2-patch-vault-most-popular-patches-in-one-place#Item_14
It's close to the last message.

Unzip it in the SAME directory you put ptool in. Load in original base firmware. (Vitaliy's link for instructions are below) Now, in ptool-look at the bottom,
you should see the "a" highlighted. Double-click on it to load driftwoods settings. Save it.

Vitaliy's instructions are here:
http://personal-view.com/talks/discussion/666/ptool-v3.62d-topic/p1

Always use a fully charged battery, AND MOST important, DO NOT USE a power supply!

Also please donate to Vitaliy. He has allowed the GH2 to become something really amazing.

LOL!
I see Macalincag just mentioned the samething....

bkmcwd

Although nobody may use this, I made Q14 version.
Since the maximum frame size must be made small even if it raises Q value more, this is the last. ;-)
Although not tried in detail, also in this patch, I think that you cannot use 30p(24p80%) in high ISO.

EDIT:
I stick Streamparser charts of the result of having done the quick test outdoor.
If 30p(24p80%) is also with about ISO800, it is used satisfactorily in normal situation. :-)
But, I think that 30p may be not stable.

proaudio4

I did peform some testing on bkmcwd 176M GOP3 Q15 and driftwood 176M GOP1, but I need to evaluate all the data. I was mainly Stray's extreme dense chart shot at under exposures and a range of 160, 800, & 3200 ISO.

Both are really good. I will compile this data and post it.
I wanted to also get Strays latest 88M, but ran short due to the wife had other plans! LOL.
I will also shoot this test next week. If anything, it will let us know where the tradeoffs are bewteen higher bitrate verses moderately high.

This really was a one-for-one test.

First of all, anyone who thinks driftwood has noiser blue channel is seeing things, or something was different is the capture.
Also, if you believe this, please explain to me how the hack increased noise; afterall, noise is ACTUAL captured detail information represented with ones and zeros.....
My tests show it's actually better at producing finer noise. The finer blocks cause less smearing on any of the color channels!

drifwood's 176M GOP1 AQ3 does a beter job of low level signal representation.
My jaw hit the floor on this... You can actually see the noise is finer in my tests. Again, exact same settings and fixed lighting. reAQuainted has smaller blocks which allow the low level illumination to come through. This represent the actual fine noise closer to the raw signal. Since more light is not smeared from blocks, it seems to illuminate more in the low IRE... fucking amazing! I can cetainly see why driftwood said it sees in the dark!

I imported this into Vegas and analyzed RGB with the mid curve cranked up a bit to see even better into the noise floor.

I will post the images later.
The only issue with my test is my daylight lamps are fluorescent which causes the moving bands (shutter sync) issue. Nonetheless, they both were under the SAME conditions.

Both are VERY good, but after seeing this, it just "may" be worth the loss in drive space and use driftwoods reAQuainted.
Thank you sir! and of course Vitaliy!

bkmcwd

@proaudio4
Thank you for testing! :-)
I am also going to borrow GH2 of my friend at this week, and to do a motion test on the same conditions again.
Although I love reAQuainted, there are people who care about whether less than 800k is really enough as frame size.
I think that this is a natural question.
It is because I-frame size is over 1M in some of other wonderful 12GOP.
Although it may eventually become the conclusion the "right man in the right place", I think that it becomes a very significant test.
I am looking forward to, also seeing the concrete result of your test, of course.

proaudio4

You bring up a good point bkmcwd. Although my tests were done to put a demand on the moderate to low under exposed detail, you do have a point about largest i-frames under high detail decent exposures.

The only question at this point is- can we see the difference between the decent exposure high detailed image between 176M GOP3 verses 176M GOP1? I'm not sure....yet. Do you have a test for this?

My tests are not the best for this, but they do show low exposures -2 stops to over -6 stops under exposed. "IMO" I believe what I'm seeing is, even though the 176M GOP3 has minimal motion vector frames (compared to GOP12), these motion frames take away some of the bandwidth to reconstruct noise, even at GOP3. I believe these low exposures are very important. Remember, white is set to100IRE and as we drop through the luminance to blacks, this is where a camera's signal-to-noise issue start to show. Now as these noise levels become more apparent, ideally we need the compression codec to represent this detail (noise) or we are left at the bottom levels displaying more visible blocks.

The GOP1 displays the noise more true to the raw output. With the GOP1 frame-to-frame images, I believe you can make a more accurate model of noise for your noise reduction program such as Neat Video, Pixel Farm, etc...

bkmcwd

@proaudio4
"The only question at this point is- can we see the difference between the decent exposure high detailed image between 176M GOP3 verses 176M GOP1? I'm not sure....yet. Do you have a test for this? "
I am planning to do the test of this very sake tomorrow.
Again, I love reAQuainted especially in about "noise". ;-)
I also think that your view about a noise is exact.

"these motion frames take away some of the bandwidth to reconstruct noise, even at GOP3"
I agree.
I think that that my friends care is how I-frame size affects the FEELING of resolving at the time of seeing not as a still picture but as a movie.
Although a result of a favorite problem is eventually likely to be brought, and again, it is likely to become a very interesting test also including a relation with wonderful 12GOP.
I think that 3GOP will be called "cream skimming setting" if I-frame size has much values.

Is the meaning transmitted correctly in my strange English? :-(

NickBen

Anybody know where the "Great Pumpkin" patch is today?

... old american humor ;-)

jdough4421

I've purchased a 16GB SanDisk Extreme 30Mb/s card upon the recommendation of some forum members here - and it works perfectly! I have recorded nearly the entire capacity of the card without issues @ 1080p 24p (GOP1 176Mbps patch).

I am blown away by the quality of the footage. Just blown away. I am shooting with these settings:
-1/50th shutter
-minus 2 NR
-minus 2 sharpness
-minus 1 saturation
...with the included Panasonic 14-140mm lens. Very satisfied. Only item I may buy in the future is an ND filter so I can maintain the 1/50th shutter in bright sunlight with a lower f-stop. Right now I have to adjust the f-stop up pretty high in order to make everything not washed out.

No_SuRReNDeR

I tried reAQuainted patch and don't get me wrong its great..... I PERSONALLY just don't like the trade off super short clip length and card filling up so dang fast. Plus My 32Gb Extereme pro seems to have a hard time with this high of a BR.... I am curious but is it possible to do a GOP 1 at say...88MB?
That is seriously more than enough bitrate in my opinion and the files would be able to record longer and be more stable, no?....I know there is a 3Gop 88patch out there but I dig the motion in 1 GOP and to me a 1 GOP 88 seems like it would just be MUCH easier to work with.

Thoughts?....

No_SuRReNDeR

------delete----

brudney

No_SuRReNDeR, I feel exactly the same. that's why I use driftwoods 132 gop3 aq3 patch. it's very stable, the results are great and I can use pretty much all class 10 cards with it. Plus I don't see any difference between gop1 and gop3, so...

ignatius

@proaudio4

Firstly I'm not a tester, simply don't have time at the moment so I never strongly argue because I often don't have the facts to back it up! I don't think Driftwood's 176 1GOP patches produce more noise than stock firmware and I have never looked at the blue channel after shooting with stock firmware, let alone compared a driftwood hack with stock for exactly the same scene with all things equal. I was just messing recently with reAQuainted and wanted to develop my novice cc skills and see how far I could push the hack with grading in post.

Other factors to consider are of course stuff like the little 'blip' with ISO320. One of my shots that was very noisy was definitely shot at ISO320, but I cant remember if I jumped up from ISO160 or down from ISO400. There's also a possibility that I had iDynamic on, which I understand may cause problems.

I'm sticking with Driftwood 176 GOP1 patches for now (and might also try bkmcwd 176M GOP3) and as soon as I get the time off work I will become a better, more methodical tester.

Cheers

Raysito22

Hell yeah. I've been trying Driftwood's 176 GOP1 patch for a week now with awesome resaults. Even with the really bad 14-42, resaults are really great. I guess nobody gets that much horsepower from a kit with NiCanon :P .

Anyway, I've tried under different circumstances. The only bad resault I got was with EX Tele mode, at F22 1/160. ISO was 160, but I got noise banding, which made me say WTF. I'll try more onto that on another shooting.

Otherwise resaults are great, even though my Transcend 16GB isn't really reliable, as expected. I even shot with a desk light, at ISO 1600, and got a really good, unexpected resault. Really cinematic.

I know the lens is not a good lens at all, I'm a Nikon user (photo), used to the likes of 14-24 or 24-70, but as those are non-adaptable except with Novoflex, and even so, not really sure about it, I'm just skipping adapting those. (If anybody can confirm me if Novoflex adapter is compatible with those G lenses, I'd appreciate it, as I've read some lenses need to be addapted to work with it, and right now, my Nikon D3x is still my priority, it feeds me :P .)

I'm now saving for a Voigtlander 25 f0.95 as it stands as the perfect kind of lens for myself. Guess in 2-3 months I'll have it, meanwhile, I'll give a shot to other patches, mainly GOP3.

As for PC performance, yeah, having some stutter here and there. 16GB RAM, i7 2600k and nVidia GTX 580 seem to be tight for raw material playback. I haven't had time enought to work with Premiere, just a few effects to see how much time it took to render, which was fast. It's just recording which slows down.

Thanks to all the users, and of course, VK, Driftwood, bkmcwd, cbrandin, and so on. Keep up the good work.

PS: as soon as I've got a little more vids and time, I'll upload a vid to vimeo. Expect it in a week or 2.

RRRR

Ray: I find it pretty smooth to work with gop1 in premiere and my hardware is not as good as yours.
Thankfully one doesn't have to work on long clips though - with some more advanced grading / effects rendering could become a nuisance..

There are much cheaper lenses out there which you could use while saving up for the voigtländer.
Get a konica 40mm 1.8 for 20$ and an adapter for another 20$. For instance. Or, look for some old Nikon glass and adapt it. I'm sure you'll find some gems if you give it a little time, and have plenty of fun shooting. The kit lens is great for what it is, but it's pretty unpersonal.

Striding a bit off topic but since I started from scratch I see now real benefit for myself in trying to adapt new nikon/canon lenses when there's plenty of manual glass that is often equal or better, and a lot, lot cheaper and easier to adapt.

Lens adaptability was the main reason why I got my first m43 camera. Resolution the second.

---

To get back to gop1 testing, I've found that the noise/iso bug really can cause problems when testing. Now I've implemented a procedure to rule it out from the equation, but while starting to shoot it definately interferred with my results. As an additional issue, I've shot most test-shots indoors in poor lighting conditions whilst occasionally having light bleed from a 60hz television.
Not ideal nor representative for what the patch is actually capable of.

driftwood

@No_SuRReNDeR There is a driftwood 100M INTRA patch on the 'most popular patches' thread Try 'Aquamotion' - developed for reliable TELE 80% 30fps mode - it still gives great results for the majority of 1080p24 recordings. However if you want top quality with GOP1 then you'll need the higher bitrate 'reAQuainted' version.

driftwood

Interesting that the AVCHD cam and P2 cameras from Panasonic have a utility that can restore bad stream recordings. search for restore_stream_en.pdf

alcomposer

@driftwood,
Already have- but that alone will save me big $ if anything goes funky!

smsjr

@Raysito22 I am using Tokina zooms (11-16, 16-50) with the Novoflex. It works fine. Due to the size of those zooms compared to say Nikon AIS primes, I do notice a tiny bit of play but nothing too serious. The primes are rock solid in that mount.

driftwood

I was using a hired AF101 today and had to download this software which was great for the avchd files ;-)
https://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/desk/e/avc_download.htm

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