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Red Epic and Scarlet pricing reduction
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  • Right now, isn't it probably cheaper in the long run for Sony or Canon to write Jim Jannard a $4 billion check like Geroge Lucas just got, and tell him to retire early, in order to protect their prices?

  • I think the biggest loser in all of this is Canon. They have to feel like they just got kicked in the junk. I can have a Scarlet package for a little more than a silly spec'd C300? Um, ok.

  • @rockroadpix you probably misunderstood the term 'color science', it's not just about 'color', it's the whole way they create an image out of the raw sensor data.

  • @rockroadpix That fact right there is amazing, as much as it hurts me that I can't nearly pay that much money for anything. :( It'd be so cool to have this package... Then again, I would need to buy a space station to store and edit all that. Some day, maybe.

  • @stip - NO, I knew what you meant. I have sat in on MANY post production sessions (spirit/flame/DaVinci/You name it). I am referring moreso to motion within the frame and the edges of objects within. If Film is the target, I have always felt that RED just missed. ARRI hit it.

  • EVERYONE except Arri missed it :)

  • Right now, isn't it probably cheaper in the long run for Sony or Canon to write Jim Jannard a $4 billion check like Geroge Lucas just got, and tell him to retire early, in order to protect their prices?

    Red is not a threat to all this companies. It is just small little bug who happened to live two sunny days.

  • geez, why you hate them that much?

  • Is the whole point of RED to look like film? I never really got that. The movies i've seen shot on RED have had some new and unique looks that I think become their own sort of standard like a new film stock. I LOVE the look of ARRI, but I also have loved the look of movies shot on RED. I think it fits well with the modern movies that are artistically edgy. Sci Fi and action films in particular. I think that they are more than a blip on the screen to the big companies.

  • @strip

    geez, why you hate them that much?

    Nope, in fact, I like them.

    Sadly it won't help.

  • @shian

    Well, that's not all correct. Even if I think in a similar line like you, let me give you a few facts: Sony was already developing the Genesis together with Panavision and Arri was working on the D20 when RED came along. It was in the air. Look at the concept of the ill-fated Thompson Viper.

    Even without RED, we would have seen a large single sensor camera from both Sony and Arri sooner or later – but probably at a higher price point. Yes, RED kicked some ass…s, but they didn't change the world. And I still hate Sony for propagating 2/3 for movie making one year before the Genesis was ready…

    And Canon? They stumbled into the game and had no plan at all. They are the ones who are really late with a great sensor and crappy recording format for too much money.

  • re: filmic look.. what Arri has is a flat, soft, organic look out of the box. Pleasant and filmic, yet I´m growing more and more allergic to ungraded (or softly graded) Arri footage.. Sony has very sharp looking footage out of the box, from what I can see (and I really don´t know why there isn´t unedited f65 footage out there) and for some cameras this might be a problem, the f3 seems to be a bit too sharp and have a bit too unpleasant highlights but I don´t see why f65 footage couldn´t be made to look good.. Even if the raw footage is on the sharper side, looking a bit video-y.

    Maybe it´s down to motion rendering in the end and that´s the key issue (in which case I believe no manufacturer (or perhaps it´s a thing for post suites?) has fully hit the mark yet – how do we account for the way frames are separated in film - in digital media?) but until I have seen, edited and colored raw f65 footage I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t produce filmic images.

    Obviously it´s always going to be easier in post for organic looking footage (out of the box) to look like film, but RED has in no way made such a camera as far as I´m concerned. The cine lineup from Canon actually succeeded with that (organic looking footage out of the box) but the specs at that price point is below par.

    Looking forward to Penelope! And 4k raw from the fs700. :)

    Edit: to clarify, Sony´s biggest mistake with the f65 marketing is in not getting footage out there quickly (from the hands of film-makers).

    Edit2: 4k for second hand Reds is a good offer, no doubt. Not for me, but a good offer nonetheless.

  • @nomad I was oversimplifying. The Viper was a 3 chip, but I remember it being a bridge to the the cams we have now. And they were all taking their sweet time, while RED just went for it.

  • Big point that everyone misses here i think is, that RED camera's will keep running for 192049120 years, since you can replace the sensor, the sony sensor will be outdated in 2 years, and you will have to buy a new camera.

    That's the biggest point for me.

  • what's the reason for this reduction? To many systems on stock? Lower number of orders? Under pressure by Sony & BMD (for shure not by Canon..)

  • @sicovdplas

    It is not really a point, as they replace whole sensor and all main boards using hugely complicated and long process.

    Is it good idea? No, of course not, as sensor and specific board must be located in small module that do not require you to send it back and forth (that they can't do now due to technical constraints).

    As for Sony sensor, idea with "outdated" it just bullshit. People become so accustomed with pointless shit talk, so they completely forget physics laws, tech used and all other real things.

  • Between the overly positive and negative comment, I think there is more a middle ground. Things like red has a 444 sensor is not correct, you cannot get 444 from a bayer sensor at 1.1 pixel. The second thing about obsolescence obsolete!!!!!!! So what will happen when you buy this $ 4000 body redone, will you have other sensors etc.... no. Those that are buying at the new epic price won't have Dragon update. They will have to pay for it. And what difference does it make, you can sell your old camera and add the money for a new one.

    Let say you are a Sony F3 user and you want to buy an F5 for $ 15 000. You sell your camera for 9/10 k and add the remaining money. In fact you are not just upgrading but get a completely new camera.

    Now red has there part in the democratization of high-end s35 camera. To deny that is really biased. While the dslr was more of the low and mid, the high-end was more because of red. They did bring some very nice technology at very competitive prices. The religion and adoration of the red boss that comes with it that is disturbing.

    The latest reduction is really nice even if is more about competition than some generous act by Jannard. It could also be a move into the mid and lower end of the market. A market that they had abandon but perhaps that as they have loss to Alexa in the high-end it was better to reposition themselves. In the end this move is good for all of us customers because it will force others to compete. For example the Canon C300 pricing looks ridiculous compared to a scarlet if you do a feature. Now lets see what Sony will do.

  • At the moment RED and SONY are on the same team. They both want to sell lots of 4K gear at premium prices.

    @danyyyel The RED boss was recently criticising Arri and other cameras producing 2K images and saying that his cameras are true 4K. Are they true 4k?

    2K raw is where companies like Blackmagic have a chance to compete because as VK mentioned: the essential ingredients of RAW video are solved very affordably with SSD and thunderbolt technology.

  • If you are doing quick turnaround TV work being able to record a 50mb/s 422 codec is amazing and the reason the C300 became the go to camera for TV production on the low end and Alexa on the high end. TV does not want to deal with the cost and resources required for 4K. To achieve that quick workflow on the Epic or Scarlett you need to spend another $13K for a module.

    The F5 with XD50 codec will cut into the C300 market a lot but the C300 has had a great headstart.

    Much of the industry has very little need or want for the added expenses of 4K Raw. Give me a good compressed codec any day of the week.

    Different strokes for different folks.

  • I think as Vitaliy indicates, RED is likely at a tiping point and needs to scoop up all the marbles while thy can right now to position for future viability. If you think of it, they really only have 2 cameras in 6 years (Red One and Epic (Scarlet is really it's subcategory).

    estimate 3 major motivations to explain the price drop:

    1. Idle camera body machine presses, and RED makes more money on Media and Accessories

    2. RED is going to release a new 8K+ Camera system in 2013 to compete at the high-end that uses their new 512GB Turbo SSD and new ASIC and needs a 6 month spurt of funding to clear out old inventory and accessories and get the Dragon sensor upgrades out the door ASAP. I bet the new ASIC they said are now required for the EPIC Dragon sensor upgrade are really the ones for the new camera system, so they'll be used in both to save on cost cost. Just good product planning there...

    3. More products out there require more servicing, just like a USED BMW dealer can make more than a new dealer, and SERVICE makes the most money...

    All just speculation, but reasonable either way...

    One of the BIGGEST potential benefits of this announcement means local super-cheap 4K RAW rental rates!

    I assume the EPIC and Sony F55 and Alexa rental rates will stay at a premium, but the Red One MX and Scarlet-X is priced so low there's no reason any major video or photo rental shop would not have at least one 4K+ RAW kit available for cheap!

  • @vicx Is RED 4K or not?

    Well, yes and no. The Epic is close to true 4K resolution, since it can shoot 5K@24p, the Scarlet or R1-MX is not. You need an overhead to decode the needed resolution from a Bayer pattern. Graeme Nattress did a great job with his decoding, about 80% for luma, and you can measure close to 4K on the Epic – if you have very good and expensive glass on it!

    The sensor outresolves all middle-class cine lenses like rehoused Zeiss or Leica-R and even some older cine lenses. You'll need master Primes or cine Summicrons to see it's limits. Imagine cameras with true 8K! You'd need all new glass for them…

    Sony's mumbo-jumbo about the tilted sensor in their cameras and "8K" aside, it resolves a tad more but at the cost of some aliasing. I've never seen any aliasing for luma with RED.

    Can't say anything about the new cameras, of course.

    Their concept of "obsolescence obsolete" is pure marketing, as Vitaliy and Danyyyel explained very well.

  • I don't like a lot of things about RED, but you need to give credit where credit is due. For a startup that came out of nowhere, they've made a huge impact on the industry. I also disagree that they are not innovating. Look at the recently announced monochrome EPIC-M sensor with 2000 native ISO. That's huge. Look at the modularity of their cameras. That's pretty damn innovative, and other manufacturers are finally following suit.

    RED is run by egomaniacs and their cameras so far aren't up to the same par as say the Alexa, but don't suggest that they aren't innovating. They're leading in a lot of ways right now, and Sony is following.

  • The only true 4k camera, as far as I know, is sony f65. (which has a completely even sample of all channels)

    You'd need all new glass for them…


    Now this is if you believe that people will actually want maximum resolution. Thing is, people would complain that the footage looks like video. Whereas lens imperfections migh introduce a desired look. This thing is certainly not linear in what is "good" and what is "bad".

  • I agree 100% with you, "imperfection" with a lens can be beautiful. I love my old lenses. Leica for example has an attitude towards resolution not being all there is. A Master Prime may (mildly) outresolve a Summicron, but some DoPs love them very much nevertheless.

    But the OP asked about 4K, and I tried to answer to that single parameter only.

    BTW, in my eyes the most impressive innovation by RED was compressed RAW at that level of quality, that's their secret sauce. Taking the filters off a sensor and getting very nice resolution, tonality and sensitivity is not that sensational – Leica did it before.

  • I see what you mean. And yes, redraw is indeed a great innovation!