Big point that everyone misses here i think is, that RED camera's will keep running for 192049120 years, since you can replace the sensor, the sony sensor will be outdated in 2 years, and you will have to buy a new camera.

That's the biggest point for me.

re: filmic look.. what Arri has is a flat, soft, organic look out of the box. Pleasant and filmic, yet I´m growing more and more allergic to ungraded (or softly graded) Arri footage.. Sony has very sharp looking footage out of the box, from what I can see (and I really don´t know why there isn´t unedited f65 footage out there) and for some cameras this might be a problem, the f3 seems to be a bit too sharp and have a bit too unpleasant highlights but I don´t see why f65 footage couldn´t be made to look good.. Even if the raw footage is on the sharper side, looking a bit video-y.

Maybe it´s down to motion rendering in the end and that´s the key issue (in which case I believe no manufacturer (or perhaps it´s a thing for post suites?) has fully hit the mark yet – how do we account for the way frames are separated in film - in digital media?) but until I have seen, edited and colored raw f65 footage I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t produce filmic images.

Obviously it´s always going to be easier in post for organic looking footage (out of the box) to look like film, but RED has in no way made such a camera as far as I´m concerned. The cine lineup from Canon actually succeeded with that (organic looking footage out of the box) but the specs at that price point is below par.

Looking forward to Penelope! And 4k raw from the fs700. :)

Edit: to clarify, Sony´s biggest mistake with the f65 marketing is in not getting footage out there quickly (from the hands of film-makers).

Edit2: 4k for second hand Reds is a good offer, no doubt. Not for me, but a good offer nonetheless.

@strip

geez, why you hate them that much?

Nope, in fact, I like them.

Sadly it won't help.

geez, why you hate them that much?

EVERYONE except Arri missed it :)

@rockroadpix That fact right there is amazing, as much as it hurts me that I can't nearly pay that much money for anything. :( It'd be so cool to have this package... http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-x-lightweight-collection Then again, I would need to buy a space station to store and edit all that. Some day, maybe.

I think the biggest loser in all of this is Canon. They have to feel like they just got kicked in the junk. I can have a Scarlet package for a little more than a silly spec'd C300? Um, ok.

Regarding $4k red one, i think they will last for 2-3 weeks in the market, with thousands people that will order the camera. The same people will need to spend minimum $10k more to make them work properly. They are selling old stuff and they will have a sold out soon. After then, they wll have huge money from accessories sold. The game is between Scarlet-Epic against Sony, the red one thing, in my opinion, is just smoke in the eyes.

I don't follow the logic of assuming that RED won't innovate and refine their electronics. Seems tome that many companies like this that get successful are then able to re-engineer their products and higher better people to work on R&D for future products. Big companies like Sony have more resources, but smaller but successful companies can focus their efforts on key projects and get similar if not better results.

NO MORE PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE.

Whole Red is big planned obsolescence. Huge one.

Sony, Canon, and Panasonic all have the same problem. They are all FAT. Their framework and infrastructure don't allow them to change direction very quickly. Which is why it took this long for them to adopt and develop anything resembling a modular approach to their cameras. And they need SO MUCH MONEY to sustain that infrastructure that they can't price their products in a competitive manner. They are big, fat, slow, and will get crushed by more nimble competition

Let's just use proper word - they are big. Not fat.

Thing is that their size is huge plus.

Look at the Red cameras internals. They all screams - not enough engineers and not enough skill.

Today highly integrated LSI and ASICs require very high skill and big number of people. Same goes for sensors.

This will be the reason for Red going out in the super thin niche market where it'll die in agony.

Biggest thing that Red supporters ignore is that only two areas prevents wide raw video - interfaces and media.

Both are catching blazingly fast. Look at BMCC - thunderbolt and stock SSDs.

Red will be killed by progress in this areas and .. economics, they just could not sustain expenses in the niche they'll be pushed.

I will say that I think this is very cool on RED's part, but I also think it takes A LOT of work to make the footage look not so "crunchy". Soderbergh calls it really organic, I don't see it, for the most part...

What do you guys think a used RED one M-X body will be worth on ebay now that the price has totally bottomed out. I am now keen to look at one of these to use in TVCs and Chroma shoots..