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Panny's X lenses not endorsed by Leica
  • http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2104725/panasonic-goes-lenses

    ...and last time I checked, there was no microscopically engraved "eica" after the L in "Lumix".
  • 32 Replies sorted by
  • Whatever Leica says. Haha.

    Samsung ditched Pentax before launching NX series. Panasonic plans to release their first m43 pro lenses 12-35 and 35-100 without Leica approval. Sony plans to release more pancake lenses without Carla Zeiss mark. Time to ditch Leica and Zeiss?
  • "Leica has very strict standards when making lenses,"

    I think I'll stick with the higher standards, thank you very much. The guy basically says it's about getting smaller lenses - as if we need smaller. The GH2 is too small as it is
  • If future X lenses are better than 7-14 and 14-140, I'm careless about Leica approval. See Nokton and Samyang m43 lenses. Those guys can make good m43 lenses without in-body software correction, too.

    The biggest issue of Panasonic lenses is the electronic fly-by-wire focus mechanism. It sucks. I'm not expecting accurate distance scale, but they gotta improve MF control. If they cannot meet Leica standard while addressing the sucky MF issue, ditch Leica. Leica might release their own cropped mirrorless system body.
  • @davhar
    I think what he was trying to say (without offending Leica) is that Leica is old school, maybe stuck in their ways, and not willing to change as easily or as fast as Panasonic is. Panasonic's new x lenses and soon to come pro lenses are a gamble since it is possibly cutting edge or just new technology. I'm skeptical like you and will wait to test before I buy, but at the same time new technologies always come with skepticism. Personally I hope the gamble pays off.
  • +1.

    Next year Panasonic will make it or break it. GFX-1, 12-35, 35-100, AF200, GH3, etc.

    I'm betting on their success, and Leica is irrelevant.
  • it would be stupit from panasonic to ditch the worlds best lens maker if you want to connect to the pro users. with leica on board the gfx can only be a bigger succes. discussion is good and raises the bar for all of us.
  • For professionals Leica is still far from irrelevant. They just recently came out with a new line of PL-mount cinema glass, and folks are raving about these. Simply the best (and the most expensive).

    It's another story with Japanese manufacturers licensing the name, be it Leica or Zeiss for mass market camcorders.

    BTW, there has been co-operation for about fifty years, Minolta for example built the first photographic zooms for Leica.
  • To be honest, since I got the Leica D 14-50 mm F2.8-F3.5, I am not so convinced about quality of leica branded lenses anymore. This lens has quit some distortion, it has breathing like hell and the electronic translation from the focusing ring to the hardware lenses feels very waggly. Means, the optical scale on the lens is jittering (first lens I got was even jittering in the lens-movement and had to be replaced), and the translation is not fixed, so sometimes the same distance of the ring doesn't mean the same distance on the lens.

    So I feel that leica brand is not necessarily a proof of quality.
  • @neveraholiday
    Leica designed the glass in the 14-50mm, not the plastic, that's Panasonic's contribution. And if you were expecting the fly-by-wire focus ring to be calibrated in any repeatable way to the internal focus mechanism, then you won't like the other Lumix lenses either. If you know of an auto-focus M4/3-compatible zoom that doesn't breathe while focusing, I'd be most interested to try it out.
  • Wow, bit of a sensationalist title to this thread, don't you think? I read the article, didn't see where you found the bit about Leica saying the X lenses suck. Just because Panasonic uses digital technology to correct for aberrations and Leica doesn't certainly won't make Panny lenses suck. Some of the non-Leica branded Panny m4/3 glass performs on par with the best Canon L lenses. They're two companies, they have different approaches to making lenses. When they can partner, great - when they can't, who cares as long as the results are there?

  • @cowpunk52
    The title was just a bit of humor, of course Leica would never publicly express themselves in that manner.
  • It's my understanding that Leica's licensing of its branding for Panasonic lenses prohibits software lens correction. So the Panaleica lenses are designed to be as linear as possible in the physical realm i.e. optically while the non-Leica Panasonic lenses e.g. the 20mm pancake and the new X series glass employ lens correction in the digital realm.

    I know LPowell knows all this already.
  • Did anyone read the (short) article? As cowpunk52 mentions, it says nothing about Leica's opinion on Panny's X lenses. It also says nothing about Panny "ditching" Leica (quite the opposite actually).

    It's commonly known that Leica does not allow digital correction on their lenses, so it was already a given that Leica's name wouldn't be plastered on Panny's X lenses.
  • @Shaveblog
    Actually, I didn't know that Leica-branded Lumix lenses use no digital correction, thanks for making that distinction clear. That alone explains why there is no Leica branding on Lumix Micro Four Thirds lenses. No offense intended, so I changed the thread title accordingly.
  • I hope Panasonic develop breathless focusing on future m43 lenses. Electronically it could be controlled by selecting region on the sensor area before processing the raw data. It might narrow FOV a bit, but it would be a good trade-off. But such "compromise" wouldn't get Leica approval. Anyways waiting for 12-35 and 35-100. Go X!!!!!
  • Not allowing digital correction on your optics is a bit purist these days. Especially if you want higher margins on your crap glass :)
  • I second this, we are living in a new millennium!
    As much as I like vintage glass for it's specific look for the right situation, designing a good lens is always a very delicate compromise between several goals, which are mutually exclusive to some degree. If you can easily correct a few things (like distortion, mild vignetting or CA) in software, you can focus all effort on things like resolution, breathing or speed. Purism can mean very different things…
  • I understand Leica's perspective, and Panasonic's. Each brand serves a different market, with a bit of Venn overlap that benefits both (revenue for little Leica, prestige for big Panasonic).

    I have a fair amount of experience with DSP correction in loudspeakers, both at the high and and low end, and I think DSP speakers are loosely analogous to the topic at hand. In both cases, transfer non-linearities are measured for a finite set of metrics at a certain vantage point in space, then their output signal is digitally corrected to reduce those measured distortions.

    I find DSP correction is better at bringing low-cost commodity designs up to an acceptable (at times, even surprising) level of subjective quality than it is at improving a well-designed speaker built with high quality drivers. The marketing behind DSP speakers has always been about polishing diamonds but the president of the world's largest speaker manufacturer (Harman) once admitted to me that she loved DSP because it upped the usability of ever-worsening commodity parts sourced from parts of the world that make China seem Swiss. And I agree - it's amazing what a little DSP can do to fool the listener into thinking a cheap set of speakers sounds much better than it should.

    As for camera lenses, I think both Leica and Panasonic have it right. Just as a well-designed speaker like the original ARs still sounds good after all these years, purely optical lens designs a la Leica will always look subjectively better overall, and still look as good 50 yrs from now. DSP-assisted lenses like the Panasonics offer unparalleled value and excellent IQ, but over time they will probably not continue to be as well-regarded. Advances in DSP and optical lens technology will undoubtedly show today's DSP lenses to not be quite as good as we think they are. I've seen it happen to DSP speakers that were hailed and heralded as the new paradigm, and it will happen with DSP lenses as well. The technology will trickle down and enable affordable, shockingly good lenses like the Panasonics, but their IQ will never be quite as good as the best purely optical designs like Leica and Zeiss.

    I love my Panasonic 20mm pancake, and I feel lucky to live at a time when you can buy a lens for not that much money that looks this good and weighs practically nothing. But I'm pretty confident it won't stand the test of time like my 1960's era Canon FD 35mm F2. Purely optical lens design, when done right, enjoys a subjective quality DSP will likely never surpass. Approach, certainly. Mimic, most definitely. But at the end of the day, Leica is right not to want to swim in those waters if it wants to preserve its brand identity as the most purely beautiful look full stop.
  • I'm right with you here. An electronically enhanced lens will probably not function properly regarding mechanics 50 years from now, and it's electronics won't be understood by the devices of the future at all.
    My wonderful vintage Rokkors from 30 to 50 years ago still deliver excellent IQ and are focusing as smooth as the did when they were made.
    But let's keep things in perspective: if I want to compare lenses, I always use the photo mode. For moving images, only a RED One can differentiate between lenses at the top level – HDTV can't.
  • I think there are good reasons why those legacy lenses became legacy.

    I like Panasonic m43 lenses except the fly-by-wire. Newly designed MF lenses from Voigtlander and Samyang look great. Eventually the legacy lens bubble price will come down to earth again.
  • The comparison here isn't "legacy" i.e. "old" lenses vs. m43 lenses. It's traditional optical lenses vs. DSP-corrected lenses. There are plenty of new lenses like the Nokton, Voigtlander, and Samyang which are traditional-type lenses with no DSP correction for the optics. Lenses like the 20mm and 14mm pancakes, as well as the upcoming X-series Lumix lenses, employ digital-domain image correction/enhancement.

    It's not about liking good ol' legacy glass 'cause it's so filmic and kewl. It's about Leica's purely optical lens design vs. Panasonic's in-lens DSP image enhancement.
  • I meant for @nomad.

    @Shaveblog, I want Leica approved HD video optimized Panasonic m43 lens at affordable price. Is that only a wishful thinking? Panasonic has set clearly that their 'X' pro lens line won't be Leica approved. Somehow that doesn't bother me much. What I care the most is final artifact. I can work with MF only lenses and Panasonic HD optimized lenses with DSP. But those Leicasonic lenses are not HD optimized and still have fly-by-wire focus. I'd rather get Samyang lens. Leicasonic m43 lenses are great for photo, though.
  • People. I feel that we are debating over the superiority of Christmas over Easter. Perhaps the assessment of this situation, you must wait until someone will test these lenses and we will evaluate whether Panasonic has done wisely. Imagine that we have to choose somewhere to meet and discuss all the topics that interest us or post in this forum. Which is cooler? Which is cheaper? Which is most optimal? Progress can not be stopped ...
  • Thanksgiving!