US: People in modern economy can live with less money

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Median household income in the United States

Via http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-245.pdf

Vitaliy_Kiselev

I already said, drop idea to opoose to get last word.
It is information sharing space, not boxer ring. I am ok to hear fully opposed view, but not one made just to oppose.

As for your "prove" things. I did it many times here, just spend your time, not mine.

jrd

If it's your view that median income has declined in the U.S. in the years covered by the chart because of a lack of "real wealth", rather than the shift of existing (and growing) income from one group to another, fine.

I'd just ask you to prove that claim. "LOL" may be sufficient proof in some quarters, but I'm stubborn, as you can see.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Lost or not, why post a chart on incomes, and then change the subject to oil in the ground?

LOL. I told that you are lost. It is you who start talking about wealth. And I just told you that less real things (energy, products) are being made in US now. And this is real wealth.

Oil is here just because energyis foundation of all human life, movement, food and production.

jrd

Lost or not, why post a chart on incomes, and then change the subject to oil in the ground? Discussion of wealth without reference to productivity and income gains makes little sense (to the lost, anyway).

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@jrd

I think you become lost now :-) Spend some time, read and research stuff and return

Do not oppose out of idea to oppose.

jrd

Personal income in the U.S. goes up every year, except in cases of recession (e.g., 2008). And income is far higher than it was at the end of WWII, even if the U.S. share of the world's wealth is about half of what it once was. 90% of the U.S. population no longer shares in the income growth, but the total does grow.

Maybe income is not the best, or even a good or valid, measure of wealth. But we are talking about income distribution, no?

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@_OZ

I want to add that it is not only peak oil, it is also peak of good quality coal (you can go and check how worse coal in China and other big countries became), peak of many other resources. All accompanied by peak of population.

And no, no simple and peaceful solution exit here.

In fact all current elites are doing is buying time for themselfs and their children, as if they tell truth and prospects they won't survive in any place in the world.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

One citation would be fine. In any event, the chart you posted reflects distribution of income, not reduced wealth There have been significant income gains from 2007 to the present, but they went almost entirely to the top 1% of earners, so median income went down.

If you talk about real wealth you need to talk not about dollar mass and GDP, but about real manufacturing, real oil and gas production (with EROI mentioning also).

So, all is good with digits, but not is good with real things.

_OZ

U.S is not "wealthier than ever".

Exactly!

U.S. was at its wealthiest immediately following WWII, approximately owning 50% of the worlds wealth. It has been in decline since that time in terms of world wealth, although people continued to see growth in their own lives (incomes, economic mobility, etc) until around the late 70's. Since then, income has stagnated or declined except for very narrow sectors of society, while production has risen quite a bit as someone already stated above.

The US is now at about 25% of the worlds wealth, but while domination of the world economy is slipping, military might and direct threat (over 1000 bases worldwide with first strike capability being ubiquitous) is still increasing.

...and as VK has alluded, the situation for masses in US will get worse as the situation for masses elsewhere will get MUCH worse. I don't see a peaceful way out of this given our history of solving these issues primarily with a big stick.

None of this takes into account the fact that previous waves and cycles did not have to deal with:

Peak oil
Climate issues that threaten survival of even the most modest claims to any current first-world lifestyle.

jrd

One citation would be fine. In any event, the chart you posted reflects distribution of income, not reduced national wealth There have been significant income gains from 2007 to the present, but they went almost entirely to the top 1% of earners, so median income went down.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Where is the evidence that national wealth has declined?

If read blog or any other economic source you'll find as many as you want.

jrd

Totally wrong? Where is the evidence that national wealth has declined?

Vitaliy_Kiselev

The U.S. is wealthier than ever. It's just that income distribution has changed radically.

And this is totally wrong. U.S is not "wealthier than ever". In fact it is "income distribution" that hide how bad things are. As such screwed distribution prevents masses to ask something real for paper and bits aka dollars.

jrd

At this point, the issue isn't scarcity of resources. The U.S. is wealthier than ever and there's no shortage of goods and resources.

It's just that income distribution has changed radically.

johnnymossville

yeah, it's "inspiring" seeing people live with less, as long as it's the other guy living with less. there are a lot of people living with less and are hurting for it.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

That said, we've been asking for it for some time now. Living WAY BEYOND our means. It inspires me when I see people living simple lives on much, much less.

Thing you are asking for (live for less) is going agains simple nature and monkeys behaviour (and people are just 99% monkeys with some thin education and manners layer). In nature monkeys never had too much food, so they can't live comsuming less, they'll be consuming as much as they can, as the ones who did not do the same died long time ago and did not get any ancestors.

So, no, I am not guy who loves "green economy", as it is just modern bullshit to adopt monkeys minds with simple fact that they'll have less energy (read - will live much worse).

HHL

Many agree with you and that is fair enough. Some are actually preparing for it, expecting it.
And yet we have all been here before, yes? And certainly, I don't want my children to live in a "shattered" world. That said, we've been asking for it for some time now. Living WAY BEYOND our means. It inspires me when I see people living simple lives on much, much less. Thanks again for the post. Good stuff. As I share these links below, I hope you know that this is related to "people in a modern economy can live with less". Enjoy.

http://blog.ted.com/2011/10/05/less-stuff-more-happiness-graham-hill-on-ted-com/

Vitaliy_Kiselev

I agree that people the world over need food and water and affordable cars.

I think you get me wrong. I just very gently described your near future. As for other world, it'll be much worse.

HHL

@Vitaliy_Kiselev

I agree that people the world over need food and water and affordable cars. Americans on the other hand....can do without their 4th tv, their 5th phone, their 3rd car. ..and they can learn to be happy without getting MORE STUFF. :) Cheers!

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@HHL

It is not really about learning. It is about accomodating to the world with less things to get, less affordable and fewer food, and no affordable cars at all. I mean back to the 1920s.

HHL

When I see the numbers and think of the related things that have caused this, that is one side of the story. And a completely valid pursuit to discuss and explore.

This hit me in a different way. Me personally, I can say that I have been trying my best to live on less. Not because I have to (my income has increased by appx $40K since 2007)....but because I find it to be a ridiculous waste to be manipulated by mindless materialism and consumerism. I have no problem at all with people getting what they want...that's fine. But it has gotten a little out of control (here in the US anyway). So, I'm glad that we have to live with less....NOW, let's hope that we actually learn some thing from it.

Cheers Peeps!

jrd

If anyone's wondering where the money went:

astraban

To push further on this topic I encourage to watch a lecture from a very good economist (I mean : his work is actually based on sources! Not common... :-) ) he speak english like me (...) but give a good presentation of the evolution of the Capital during XXth and XXI century in US and some comparaison with EU countries during the same period.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbdYmEXIEvkqObNCW5ASQV2lUP9FvRSS_

He recently published a very good book that I'm actually reading (The Capital in XXI century). It will be available in english via Harvard University Press in 2014. (Ps : no, I don't know the men personnaly... and it's not me)

Vitaliy_Kiselev

one, the scale makes it appear as if household income has fallen off a cliff

LOL, scale has clear numbers.

Going to baseline year, let's open wikipedia chart

As you can see, inflation adjusted income is at about 1995 levels.

But perhaps the most shocking thing about this chart is that if you compare it to many countries around the world, especially many EU member states, it makes the US economy look like a miracle.

In many countries media income increased, in some dropped. If you want to get some foundations, you can just get back in the blog posts about energy and resources.

danabrams

The chart is misleading in several ways...one, the scale makes it appear as if household income has fallen off a cliff, when in fact it's about an 11% drop. Second, it uses it's baseline year as the last year of a bubble. A chart that went back to say, 2002, wouldn't look so disastrous...it would show a sudden upswing and then a drop. It doesn't factor in inflation, but inflation in the US has been very low for the past twenty years, and almost non-existent since the 2008 crash.

But perhaps the most shocking thing about this chart is that if you compare it to many countries around the world, especially many EU member states, it makes the US economy look like a miracle.

Howdy, Stranger!

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