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Black Magic: Official $1,995 raw cinema camera topic, series 2
  • 1111 Replies sorted by
  • @shian

    about the jello, I VERY strongly agree. When turning the camera on the first 30 seconds of using it, I gave it a slight wiggle and quick pan, and couldn't believe what I was seeing.

    and the false color, what would this mean exactly? like...showing an idea of what the colors we are shooting really are?

    I haven't tested on getting more exposure boost from resolve, but would making a few nodes and boost exposure on each help, or no? i am in NO way a resolve guru, I've only been experimenting with it the past month and it's a tricky tool for sure, but doesn't seem like it will take too long to get the hang of.

  • If I weren't whacked out of my head on cold medecine, I probably wouldn't post this. BUT since I am - here we go.

    Now that I've shot with one, and played with the footage in post.

    Here are my thoughts:

    The jello is horrible... HORRIBLE. That's gotta change. They did fix many of my gripes with the latest firmware release in terms of iris control. The Focus peaking is nice. The shadow response is kinda weak. I think it should come with a sticker that says, "NEVER UNDEREXPOSE YOUR SHADOWS WITH THIS CAMERA.....EVER." Meter you scene, make sure the highlights will fit within 11-12 stops or so, and let them blow, cuz you can get them back... but you're not gettin' your shadows back, brutha... no way. BTW a good and accurate False Color function would help with this.

    Verdict: If on a tripod or an extremely steady hand held rig, it's a nice camera. It won't get my money, but there are many worse options out there in this price range.

    In Post: I'm curious why Resolve doesn't have as comprehensive an interpretation dialog as AE. Cuz the exposure slider alone ain't cuttin' it. I want CONTROL. I haven't updated to the new version of resolve (9.1 i think it is) to see if they've remedied this yet, but I'd like to have independent control over everything stored in the DNG - the highlights, shadows, exposure, contrast, and brightness. Everything else is already there; color temp, etc.

    And as a bonus: Just some thoughts and predictions that I took a lot of heat for last year before the release.

    http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/63170#Comment_63170

    http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/69912#Comment_69912

  • @hunter - that's where a shimmable PL mount like the Hot Rod Cameras tuner kit comes into play.

  • @johnbrawley

    And the black sun dot? What created this issue? I'm guessing this has been talked about on 10 other forums by now?

  • @GravitateMediaGroup

    It's a different issue. Focus peaking tells you if something is in or out of focus.

    Having the right FFD, determines if a lens can hit focus at it's furthermost distance (infinity) and then how the witness marks or distance scales on the lens line up for accuracy.

    Ideally, a lens will be set to hit infinity when the little mark says it's focused to infinity on the lens and at the correct FFD on the camera, which in this case is 44mm.

    As BMD have discovered, stills lenses lenses aren't that accurately calibrated for both their distance markings and their FFD. Faster wide angle lenses tend to show this up the most and the Tokina seems to have the worst tolerance (judging by the number of FFD issues that are associated with this lens on other cameras including Canon)

    jb

  • Here's to hoping the mft mount doesn't require this same adjustment... it would be nice to be able to trust the accuracy of the marks on our cine lenses in PL.

  • Why can't focus peaking reduce this issue? Being that it's a feature available.

  • @nomad

    right and so NOW that they have changed their FFD, that Zeiss lens most likely WON"T be accurate. Infinity will hit before the mark on the lens.

    jb

  • @nomad - not true, there is a Sigma 10-20 with constant ap. - f3.5. I have it and it is a great lens.

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/633609-REG/Sigma_202101_10_20mm_f_3_5.html

  • Well, I tried some Zeiss Contax lenses with a known good adapter on the BMCC. They were spot on with focus marks, while the same lenses go a bit past infinity on a Canon.

    But we can't have it all, and it doesn't matter that much if you use a FF with own marks. Flange distance is most critical on the wide end, and many will want the 11-16mm to have something wide. The Sigma is slower and doesn't have constant aperture.

    I think I can live with the fix.

  • They wanted cinema lenses that have a hard infinity stop and accurate witness markings for focus pulling to be accurate and found that many EF mount lenses aren't that accurate.

    Most of their buyers do not have even single cinema lens (I do not count for such Samyangs with gears).

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    or...

    They wanted cinema lenses that have a hard infinity stop and accurate witness markings for focus pulling to be accurate and found that many EF mount lenses aren't that accurate.

    So they are now deliberately shortening the mount to allow for this inaccuracy with the downside being that cinema lenses with hard stops at infinity and witness marks will not be as accurate.

    jb

  • @robmneilson

    i'm glad one brave soul is attempting this. let me know if they are true to their word about a quick turnaround. I've heard a lot of nightmares people have had with sending equipment back to larger manufactures (panasonic, canon), so I'm curious to see how BM does.

  • @robmneilson where did you send back? Australia?

  • Shipped my bmcc back today to be recalibrated, they say its up to a ten day turnaround. I guess ive already waited this long.....

  • If you think you're encountering this issue, please contact your local Blackmagic Design support office and we'll sort you out. The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated.

    yeah............I don't see this happening. Send it back to the blackmagic monster and it will be 5 years before you get it back. lol j/k

  • The cameras are all shimmed and calibrated to 44mm as per the reported focal flange depth of EF mount. I use the term "reported" as Canon does not publish the specifications officially so the exact expected tolerances are not known.

    When I tried the same collimated lens on some 5Ds, 7Ds and even a C300, the witness marks fall short of the expected distance which indicates to me that there's some fair amount of tolerances built into the Canon cameras to cater for still lenses where the tolerances are not as critical as cine lenses.

    To address this, we need to put in the same allowances. We have tested this with some of the cameras from customers reporting this and it works.

    If you think you're encountering this issue, please contact your local Blackmagic Design support office and we'll sort you out.

    The camera will have to be sent back to be recalibrated

    To be short - somehow BM though that they do not need to allow tolerance for ideal lens to shoot past infinity. They also did not make measurements of actual flange distance of enough samples of Canon cameras before issue became known.

  • @GravitateMediaGroup

    The speed of the fan is controlled electronically, so it's reproducible. We don't let it swivel. You can see the squeezing and stretching of the blades very well at short exposure times.

    @ all others: You can squeeze more stops than 8 into 8 bit, if you like. Many cameras are squeezing 9.5 stops into 8 bit. These things are not directly related, even if both are "binary", like doubling with every step. But the bit depth will just decide how finely differentiated your values will be. 13 stops put into 12 bits have 4096 discrete values you can use for your corrections, giving you a lot of leeway before you get into banding. If you squeeze that much latitude into 8 bits it will fall apart quickly.

  • After spending 10 weeks helping to color-grade the film [Oh Brother Where Art Thou?], Deakins said he was impressed with the new technology’s potential, but remarked in the October 2000 issue of American Cinematographer that “the process is not a quick fix for bad lighting or poor photography.” (This quote can stay in the present tense, of course, because it will be relevant in perpetuity.)

    He was using DataCine scans from Super-35mm. Totally, @eatstoomuchjam , all RAW requires processing. Unprocessed RAW looks like crap no matter the camera. Some of the cutting edge HDR displays may be able to one day show a RAW image in near totality but they're still going to be applying a LUT of some kind.

  • RAW absolutely does not mean "no processing." Every RAW format has a bit depth limitation - most higher end still cameras are 14-bit. Some lower-end cameras are still 12-bit. Beyond that, 12-bit RAW does equal 13 stops of dynamic range, as long as you remember that 0 is also a valid value. That would make all possible powers of 2 that could be stored in that space equal to this range: 0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048

  • I have a very basic question: the BMCC claims 13 stops of dynamic range in a 12bit DNG file (raw). How can a 12bit raw file exhibit 13 stops of dynamic range? 12bits mean 2^12 values for the luma information, hence also 12 stops (luma doubles with every stop).

    Or is there some confusion regarding the term raw? Raw means for me no processing, just a huge junk of data from the sensor. In this case raw seems to be more, namely 13 stops mapped onto a 12bit "raw" file via some sort of curve.

    I understand the mapping of lets say 11 stops of DR mapped via log (or something else) on an 8bit codec. But RAW?

    What am I missing?

  • I know that in a lot of situations, this can be important. But I had to laugh every time he said "but it can be brought back" hence, the purpose of raw to begin with. I have noticed that with raw or not, if you push the bmcc too far it's noise city.

  • @BurnetRhoades

    Yep, but it is always required to add all test details before this video, as this guys used very strong ND filters to specially show big color shift.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev I'm sure, it just gets to the meat of the issue a lot faster than the "family crest" version.