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Zacuto 'Revenge of Great Camera Shootout,' featuring GH2
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  • Hi there I just got out of the screening of 'Revenge of Great Camera Shootout,' in Chicago it was amazing. Almost everyone there chose GH2 as their best camera without knowing it, and the best part was after they discover that it was GH2 they couldn't believe it. some even started laughing. GH2 rocks in the right hands

  • @thepalalias, yes I thought it was a playback issue, but I saw it in VLC, WMP and Splash until I converted. If the files weren't multiple gigs, I'd post it. I'd never really seen it before and I can't say I've seen it since, only in that single file in that condition. But yeah, it's hard to show true "proof" because even the same files on different computers can play differently. There are too many variables. You'll just have to see it on your own setup.

    Try 18mm@F11, ISO160, 24p/50 with Sedna Q20 and pan fairly slowly across sky and trees. It was the transition between sky and detailed leaves that showed it, as @Kholi and @Plasmasmp said.

  • @philldaagony

    I am interested in two tickets to the Chicago screening. Let me know.

  • It would be nice if someone could post such a cadence comparison. So far no one that has talked to about it has been able to show me what they mean - they just tell me their conclusions.

    To anyone that feels very familiar with the cadence differences: Back in the original Zacuto comparison (GH1, etc.) there is a section where they compare going from ultra lowlight to turning on a lightbulb in the lattitude test. Is there enough motion in that to demonstrate what people are talking about? Or is a very large amount of motion required? Does the GH1 have a similar cadence unhacked (or hacked) as the Gh2?

    See, I honestly do not worry about it normally. I am not saying that it is or is not there, but with every shoot having to compromise in some area (and with the cameras varying so widely in dozens of other ways that are at the forefront of the decisionmaking process) the cadence just does not come up for me.

    I prefer I-frame footage when possible for 24P, but I make do with others when I need to (and quite often when I am shooting 50P or 60P).

  • I don't know what everyone is talking about in terms of the Motion Cadence difference between cameras. I would love to see some kind of test demonstration of the relative differences between a GH2 and something like a Sony if someone has something already done that would be nice to see. Anyone done something like this?

  • I love the fact people are starting to finally acknowledge motion cadence issues and differences between the GH2 and other cameras. Whereas everything usually seems to center around DR, (color) resolution etc, no one ever talked about motion rendering. For me, it's absolutely key.

    It's undeniable that there's something inherently "film-like" about 24p captured by the GH2 which you can't find in other cameras less than 10k. While Panasonic is usually very good in this one area, the AF100 seems to lack some of these specific qualities that draw me to the GH2. Wish I could understand better the differences between how the motion is rendered in a large sensor video camera vs a DSLR (especially between 2 products from the same company no less, gh2/af100 etc).

    What is the secret formula? Is it primarily a codec issue? A shutter issue? I'm totally excited to see the results from the shootout based on what I've heard so far.

  • @philldaagony

    I'd love to go! I'm off work at 6:30 and can meet you there. Hit me up with details...

  • @svart That sounds more like a playback issue than a shooting one. Using Cineform all i-frame, I have not had any cadence changes during the conversion.

  • Is anyone planning on attending either the 5:30 or 7:30 showings in Chicago tomorrow night? I recevived a call from Zacuto to confirm my attendance, and I have four tickets reserved, but I need to give them names of those accompanying me. Well, my local guests have backed out, and I was wondering if anyone wanted to go. I can put your name on the list, but I need to know ASAP!

  • @kholi, @plasmasmp, I noticed this strange cadence "look" the other day in bright sunlight. I thought it was my monitor so I tried it on a different monitor and then on a computer. All the same strange "look". I tried long and short GOP and got the same. I then processed through neoscene as "all-I frames" and the strobing is gone. Can you confirm this on your ends?

  • If you have a fan, or something else with consistent repeatable motion, it is easy to setup tests on a tripod to shoot the same thing with different shutter speed. The GH2 does not "magically" do better at 1/40 or 1/50 but they do look different from each other (and if they did not, it would indicate that the shutter control was broken). Try both and see what you like. As for myself, at 24H I tend to use 1/50 or 1/60.

    As far as RED, the main thing I noticed in the footage so far in regards to motion (and I reserve the right to change my mind later) was how much of an improvement the RED was for rolling shutter. Using a long lens handheld, I consistently felt like I was more limited by my ability to hold the lens, than by the camera. On the Gh2, the rolling shutter using the same lens was much more noticeable.

    The rolling shutter on the GH2 is not great, but we already knew that. So if your scene has a high amount of motion, that can be an issue (depedning on the type of motion). Gunnar Thalin measured the rolling shitter values for various cameras, including the GH2, for use with his DeShaker filter, so you can take a look at his table for a reference on that.

    P.S. My client loved the footage I shot with both the RED and GH2. They commented very positively on the motion in the RED shots, especially the low resolution 120p played back at 24p as slow-mo.

    EDIT: The info I mentioned for DeShaker rolling shutter is up at http://www.GuthSpot.se/video/

  • @kholi @brianluce @pinger007 thank you all for your insight I like what I'm hearing about the 1/40th shutter, specially the increase in light hug plus & finally image stuttering. Will give it a run later tonight..

  • I'm using very much 1/40th now, with a PAL GH2, filming in NTSC lands, at 24p, to avoid flicker problems with artificial lights.

  • @kholi

    Been there. :-)

    I remember using 1/24th back in my dvx100 days... A ”wild man” they would call me. :-)

  • @pinger007

    Believe it or not, or try it or not (haha), you could get away with 1/30th if the camera' snot moving a ton, or people in frame aren't moving a ton. Tiny bit of extra light. =PPPP

  • @TrackZillas

    I agree with the 1/40th shutter speed recommendation. To my eye it provides a more filmic motion than what the 1/50th provides. I know that 1/50th is closer to 1/48th, but it's just too stuttery and DSLRish for my taste. Another plus is that it lets in more light for those times when you need it. :)

  • @TrackZillas, This issue has been discussed a lot. It comes down to personal preference. I like 1/40th because it requires a little less light. I can't really tell the difference in the motion signature, but Kholi and others can. Main point is, don't reflexively set the shutter at 1/50th our truly limiting yourself.

  • @TrackZillas

    I'm saying that's what made me comfortable with the GH2. 1/50 doesn't look right to me, 1/40 looks pretty good. I went through the same thing with the Canons, and have been recommending for a very long time that people switch from 1/50 to 1/45, only a few people do it or try it, but everyone that does ends up switching over indefinitely.

    IF you want to try it, shoot people at 1/40, friends, family, then see how you like it.

  • @kholi So you saying 1/40th shutter is best for the GH2 for a filmic cadence..

  • @plasmasmp

    Yes, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. When there're a lot of leaves etc against a bright sky, you can see it blatantly and it is SUPER ugly. Only way to defeat it is to cut light until the contrast is balanced out.

    The weird thing is this: I can also use a different set of lenses altogether to defeat it, without the penalty of being forced to close down. I noticed, after reviewing footage, using Zeiss Standard Speed PL glass, these harsh edges pretty much vanished.

    Recently, I revisited some old lenses that I had and compared them to Nikon, Canon EF, and my last Contax Zeiss copy to make sure that I wasn't seeing things. Sure enough, problem solved.

    Soon as I get some time I'm going to do the 24~28mm comparison with all of the 24's and 28's that I own.

  • @kholi. I finally got my gh2 to do the weird strobe effect where the motion is all screwed up. 1/40 or 1/50 didn't matter. It was something to do with lots of high contrast edges that messed up the processing. AS far as motion goes, nothing looks better than the old rotational mechanical shutter. I wish there was a way to sync the gh2 and try it it with one of those tessive time filters.

  • @JDN

    As I've said elsewhere here, what people saw and responded to at Zacuto was the lighting and grading of the GH2 footage (which was quite different from all the other cameras) in the second half of the test, not the motion cadence, not the resolution, and not the DR.

    If the comparison had ended with the one-light grade and the universal lighting set up, the preferences would probably have tracked the prices of the cameras much more closely.

  • @bwhitz

    I can imagine. I've been debating this same topic since the DVX100 days, and it only got worse when the HVX200 came out and people compared the motion to 24F, EX-1's 24P. The HVX200 and Canon's were CLEARLY more "film like" than the Sony, but people swore up and down that there was no difference.

    Strangely enough, at the time I found the Canon to be different but pleasant, however the HVX200 still trumped.

    Part of Panasonic's Mojo was always the 24P.

    I ALSO get the same flack from people telling me I can't tell the difference between shutter angles and it's almost laughable.

    But, at the end of the day I guess if someone can't see it then they just can't see it.

  • "Some people will tell you that you're crazy and you can't tell a difference because they can't tell a difference."

    haha. We had a big argument about this when the low-GOP patches started coming out...

    Some people even went as far as to say that it was impossible to even tell the difference between a 1/25 and 1/50 shutter angle. :slamhead:

    "Just trying to put my finger on what the testers in this screening saw, and why they had such a meh response to red and sony footage (other than the f65)"

    Well, dunno about the Red. I've always like the way Red looks. But as far as the Sony stuff, yea, the motion on the FS-100 and F3 have never looked good to me. Did they use external recorders? Because anything that isn't all Intra-Frame looks like crap to me now. Even the C300's has the temporally-compressed look due to the long-gop codec.

    ...but, the F65 has that new mechanical shutter coupled with the digital sensor... so that may be the trick.

  • @JDN

    I told them (Colt, operating the GH2 for the Zacuto shootout) to use 1/40 shutter, and I am curious if they did. Honestly, not all 24P is the same and I think part of the GH2 draw IS the motion. SOny can't get there, it's NEVER Been able to get there, although I did hear that the F65 looks proper finally.

    Alexa, it gets there. RED, it goes in and out and I can NEVER tell why. Sometimes it looks great, sometimes it looks unappealing. Canons have their own look entirely, but can be more pleasant shooting 1/45 shutter instead of 1/50th.

    Some people will tell you that you're crazy and you can't tell a difference because they can't tell a difference. IN fact, there's topic going on right now about the FS100/Sony video motion and people continue to tell a nice sized chunk of users who CAN see it... that it has something to do with lighting, craft, etc.

    If you can't see it, you can't see it, but it's there.

    The Magic Cam footage is pretty spot on.