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IMO, it would be unnecessary to have more than 1600 ISO when shooting raw. That's something you can set later on, and the ISO values won't matter aside from in REC709 (Video) mode. Where the values would be baked in.
Ideally, you'd want to light for the ISO the camera is optimized for at minimum. I'm sure that's why May's repeatedly said he's not pitching it as a lowlight camera. This is another reason as to why this camera is not "That" DSLR killer.
He's also quick to let people know that there is Jello, as soon as someone touches the camera and starts panning. Haha. That made me laugh, quietly though.
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He's also quick to let people know that there is Jello, as soon as someone touches the camera and starts panning. Haha. That made me laugh, quietly though.
And this is having sensor that is perfectly capable for images without any jello as it has global shutter mode.
It is hard to me to understand some BM decisions. -
I am not sure if he meant to mention it, but I overheard him say something about global shutter capable, so you guys may or may not be right about it being that sensor. Please, do not quote me on this, of course. There was a lot of chatter around the corner the camera was in.
I'm curious if the reason really was because of a hit in DR, and the DR thing was a big deal it seems like. Hitting near-to-13 stops is one of the goals they're putting on a pedestal, made sure to ask that question.
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This camera will be a 16mm Alexa. You can quote me on that ;) Okay, so what if the sensor area is around 22mm actually.
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Things to consider:
How many extras will you have to add to this thing to make it a workable solution?
Are you gonna shoot with just the LCD, even with that snap on hood which will likely need to be replaced often because it either wears out or gets lost.
No EVF??? How long before you are buying a hood loupe or a 3rd party, zacuto-esque EVF because all too often your focus is soft? $1400 for one of those. http://www.abelcine.com/store/Alphatron-EVF035W-3G-EVF-Electronic-Viewfinder/ (it's now a $4500 camera)
How steady is that thing really gonna be the way it's designed when shooting handheld, even with their handlebars....and then how much is it gonna cost to buy a rig for handheld shooting that can be operated comfortably, and used with a follow focus?
Lens options - for now, it's canon and nikon and those with canon and nikon mounts like the Zeiss, are you going to need new lenses? Or adaptors?
I'm sure there's other things to consider - monitoring options, workflow. The cost of SSD "magazines".
How much will you really spend on this camera before you can actually use it for work?
Would you be better off with a different solution?
....just food for thought
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Hitting near-to-13 stops is one of the goals they're putting on a pedestal, made sure to ask that question.
Yep, but we can't be sure about it, as this sensor, as I said use quite complicated approaches :-)
I think we can be 99% sure that it is sCMOS sensor, as all the specs match.
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I'm personally not expecting 13, not usable anyway. If it falls a stop short then it's still two solid stops better (in usable data) than anything short of F3. At that price range, I guess you can't have everything.
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@shian You're killing my buzz, man! Don't let your disappointment with other cameras release carry over to this one. :) It's the magic cam. (But anyone who is ahead of me in the pre-order line, feel free to drop out. ;) If the DR is as good or better than what has been shown in the test videos then I'm a happy camper for 3 grand.
I want to hear opinions on using the screen to focus. Is it big enough? Sharp enough? I can focus pretty good on the GH2 screen so if it's significantly better than that at least I can wait on the SDI monitor a while.
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It's funny how everywhere on the web this camera is getting a positive response except here. Hell I remember Vitaliy was super optimistic at first, but now he seems to find any chance to knock it down. Too bad it doesn't get a fare rap on this site. I used to love this site and what it had to offer the low budget indie guys. Now its starting to feel like a communist plot to take over the camera world by pushing hacked GH2's with high bitrate 420 with a ton of caveats, no clean HDMI, and baked in colors. This site has become a GH2 fanboy site headed up by their fearless leader Vitaliy. Don't get me wrong I love the GH2, and I am grateful for the work Vitaliy and others have put into the projects.
I still use my GH2 all the time as a second camera, but it is no Scarlet, no Epic, no RED ONE, no F3, no C300, no Alexa, no FS100, hell in my opinion it's not even the AF100. I can tell you this Blackmagic Cinema Camera will be better than around half of those cameras I just mentioned, so lets just talk about what Blackmagic is trying to do, which is make professional high quality cinema camera available to the masses. Is the Blackmagic Cinema Camera perfect, no, but most of the limitations can be solved by a third party. Plus many people coming from the DSLR world might already have a lot of the needed third party gear. If anyone wants an honest and accurate recollection of the showing, just look around the web and base the info on a few sites not just this one.
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It's funny how everywhere on the web this camera is getting a positive response except here. Hell I remember Vitaliy was super optimistic at first, but now he seems to find any chance to knock it down. Too bad it doesn't get a fare rap on this site. I used to love this site and what it had to offer the low budget indie guys. Now its starting to feel like a communist plot to take over the camera world by pushing hacked GH2's with high bitrate 420 with a ton of caveats, no clean HDMI, and baked in colors. This site has become a GH2 fanboy site headed up by their fearless leader Vitaliy.
Such a bunch of bullshit in such small space.
I don't really see how I knock this camera down, if I make constantly updated FAQs and have most complete information collection about it. Talk to Black Magic guys and John.@Brian202020, believe me, people are not interested in ten circles of your "how great DSLR killer this is", people want to see pluses (that we mentioned all here, in other topics and FAQs) and all minuses. BM, of course want to see polished view of all their design flaws, just it won't happen here.
I'll pass the GH2 fans remarks made with sole purpose to start flame. Only idiot could believe this.
Part of the current problem is so called "correct world". Here is not "correct forum". Do not like it? It is bad for ya.
If anyone wants an honest and accurate recollection of the showing, just look around the web and base the info on a few sites not just this one.
This is good recommendation made with bad selection of words.
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Looks like Black Magic giveth with one hand and taketh with the other... Yay RAW!!! Nay everything else! :-(
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I was also there today. I would say that I am still very interested to see what type of picture we get out of it when it's released in DNG raw 12 bit. Told them to make it a micro 43 mount. Also suggested that they make an anamorphic adapter to use the full 4/3 sensor. Told them to put on 2.35 markers, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don't remember right now.
Also it does seem not to have a lot of functionality, but I am not so sure that what it doesn't have is going to bother a lot of people if the footage looks really good.
Sorry, I got there after the workflow presentations.
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Another thing to consider ---
Remember when the Red first came out and had problems? What did you do, you had to call the rental house and get another body, if they didn't have one (and they usually didn't) they would call other houses to see if they did. If they couldn't find one PRODUCTION STOPPED. Days were lost, producers started hating on the RED. NOW it's not a problem, we take it into account. The rental houses have plenty of bodies on standby and can get one out to you within the hour....you take lunch early, or shoot with B-cam only while you wait.
When this cam comes out it will likely have limited availability as well. What happens if this is your primary cam, and you go into production with it, and it starts having problems, what are your options???
I'm not in the "fuck this cam" camp, I'm in the "wait and see cuz its definitely not there yet" camp.
RAW is awesome! ProRes is awesome! anything NOT 4:2:0 is awesome! 13 stops (if it actually has it) is awesome! Everything else....not so much, and how long will it take them to get it right? Remember when The Epic was supposed to be ready? And when was it finally ready? Same with the Scarlet. I will not be an early adopter for this exact reason.
My reaction is due to my expectation that BMD would not repeat the mistakes of other camera companies which is promise more than they could deliver.
EDIT- also, I know that at some point some dunderheaded producer, high on the hype, is going to force me to shoot with one. Like I've been forced to shoot with the 7D and 5D, and if it starts giving me shit, I'm going to want to drop kick it out a 3rd story window in frustration.
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I'm excited about this camera, but Shian, remember when speaking about ProRes and anything not 4:2:0, that while the footage will be delivered in a 4:2:2 wrapper with ProRes, the sensor is not capable of delivering true 4:2:2. (Have a look at some of Barry Green's posts about debayering from this resolution)
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@shian .. I actually appreciate 'Devil's Advocate' debates.
My reaction is due to my expectation that BMD would not repeat the mistakes of other camera companies which is promise more than they could deliver.
I do not know who else has BMD products .. I do .. 7 of them .. and they all perform up to the declared specifications, and not one product has had even the slightest hiccup.
Two of the products I pre-ordered, and they were delivered within a week of the 'we are shipping date'
Personally I am not a BMD fanboy because I am attracted to the cinema camera, but because I have experience with their products, and their dealership betwork in Australia.
They don't to my knowledge provide direct support .. I deal with NewMagic in Australia (which I suspect is linked to BMD) .. the support here in Australia is awesome.
I know from the local distributor, that our two local hire companies have also ordered the cameras. I think he said the larger company has ordered two .. and Perth is a small town.
Having said all that, they could stuff it up, there is always a first time .. also I don't own a mac.
Note also that Ultrascope does run on windows, there is also a pci version .. which I haven't bought as I am going to wait for thunderbolt on a laptop.
(I am rendering a clip at the moment with ColorGear, I love it thank you)
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@Shian- what you're saying is perfectly valid in terms of having a reliable camera for big productions, but to call this camera a "piece of crap" when you haven't used it, and it's not even out yet, or finished, is really unfair. Sometimes you pay a price for being an early adopter. It's like gambling, and you've obviously been burned before, but it doesn't mean this camera will turn out the same way.
There are no guarantees with anything in this business, but I believe BM will do their best to deliver a solid product. And for $3k I'm willing to put up with a few problems initially to have this kind of imagining. I've been working around dlsr limitations for years now and it will surely be a major step up.
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@yeehaanow More like $5000-$7000 for a usable production solution. Just like with the RED touted as a $20,000 cinema cam, but you really had to spend closer to $80,000 to have something you could use for production.
Just start looking at what you're going to need to shoot with this cam, how much of your current gear is going to actually work with it, and if it doesn't what are you going to have to pay to get gear that works with it...and lenses.... It's a $3000 entry price, but other than dicking around with it, what are you going to be able to shoot with it out of the box?
NOW, if they dropped the software off the package and offered the cam for $1000, I night be on board with that, very reasonable, they may even eventually offer this.
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I think that extras are required goes with out needing to be stated ... you can't just buy a GH2 or a 5D and not need all the same extras.
Most of us here I think have, or aspire to own all the items required. I see that point as moot, and ovious to anybody who is contemplating purchase.
In my case, I will purchase the Tokina 11-16, and I am up and running.
I imagine most can attach it to what ever rig they are currently using .. remove 5D or remove GH2 .. and attach BMD. What else do you need apart from a bigger battery and an SSD to get started?
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Let's be clear, I'm talking about serious production where, you have a hundred people on set, all collecting a paycheck, and when the camera isn't working, or worse yet, you get into post and the camera worked poorly or shots are out of focus, it costs the production money. Some productions I've worked on, that's no big deal. But on the tiny productions, the kind most of the people here work on, it can be catastrophic. So keep in mind, for the hobbyist, or someone shooting landscapes, or cityscapes, my standards don't apply.
SDI EVF -- Good luck with that LCD outdoors even with the LCD hood/shade. Does it come with a duvetine hood to block the glare coming from behind you? Unless they include some sort of tvlogic-esque focus assist overlay for the screen. There's gonna be a lot of soft focus RAW footage coming out of this thing.
You probably don't have a 1st AC pulling focus, so you don't need to worry about a follow focus, but those shooting in low light on house power or available light with this thing, who need to open up the lens and do a dolly shot, or a walk and talk will. How much you wanna bet, your current handheld rig won't line up properly for your follow focus, unless you are one of those who have a Chrosziel or Arri FF lying around. Now with the GH2 I pull my own focus, and I do it from the EVF which kills my back because I have to hunch to look into it. The loupe and LCD just aren't sharp enough. Sharp enough for me to see all the pixels on the screen, but not hi-rez enough to get dead on focus. I get lucky most of the time.
And....there is no bigger battery...the battery doesn't come out....it's internal, so you'll be running ac power, or a thunderbolt cable to it half the time to charge the battery.
SDI monitor, or a SDI to HDMI converter box.
How much footage is gonna fit on your SSD? How much for spares?
If the 11-16 is all you need....more power to ya brother....rock on!!! You are a far better DP than me. (and that's not sarcasm, that's respect)
Look. I know I sound like an asshole about this, but we have to wait and see. I could be incredibly wrong about this. ( I don't think I am) They could knock it out of the park on it's release, and if they do, I'll look into getting one. But the cam I saw yesterday, isn't even close to being ready for what I do. There was nothing they said amidst the meek, "we're working on it" replies that instills any confidence in me that this thing will be anything worth buying for at least another year.
Remember how amazing FCP X looked when used under controlled conditions?? (sales pitch)... and the 'oohs' and 'ahhs' and applause from the crowd at the introduction??? People were talking like it could edit your movie for you by telekinesis --- ON its release it was garbage!!! Now, a year later, it's pretty damn awesome. Not as awesome as I would like it to be, but it does what I need it to do, and does it quickly. I've pretty much abandoned FCP7.
I'm a cynic. I expect the worst in people, and companies... BMD has an awesome track record.... but then, so did Apple for a long while. Now, they hit more often than they miss....but occasionally they miss and it it takes them a while to get it fixed. I expect BMD's first camera to have a few hiccups while they learn to walk. So ask me again next year if it was worth the wait, and maybe I'll already own one....maybe not. Too soon to tell.
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The largest shoots I've been on were about 30 .. and as bestboy or camera assistant (and not for almost 20 years) These days I shoot talking heads by myself .. and music videos with a crew of 4 or 5 .. and multicam with 10.
So keep in mind, for the hobbyist, or someone shooting landscapes, or cityscapes, my standards don't apply.
I think that's key to our debate .. I don't think this camera is aimed at the production scale you work in,
SDI EVF
I am glad it's SDI output, I see HDMI as dodgy, and having difficulty with light outdoors is an issue with all LCD's.
you wanna bet, your current handheld rig won't line up properly for your follow focus
John Brawley has stated it conforms to the 15mm Lightweight Standard
SDI monitor, or a SDI to HDMI converter box.
I think that everybody who is contemplating purchase is aware of that.
How much footage is gonna fit on your SSD? How much for spares?
The math eludes me it's late here .. I do get just over an hour of DNxHD on a 120G.
How many 64G cards do you need to work with GH2
How many drive for the RED
.. 120G SSD $220 locally .. 64G card at BH $180 .. Red drives .. I don't know .. shit loads of money
And....there is no bigger battery...the battery doesn't come out
Yes we all know that .. I feel you need bigger capacity .. everyone knows it's internal.
You are a far better DP than me
I demand you take that statement back :) Your work is awesome
I hire people with skills similar to yours when the job is beyond my abilities,
The 11-16 will get me going .. I have some L glass (bit long for this) I can hire canon glass easily.
But the cam I saw yesterday, isn't even close to being ready for what I do.
Agreed, it's not aimed at your production levels.
Can you see how it's close to perfect for me .. music video clips.
I have an EX1 for talking heads .. and I hire in more for multicam jobs.
Oh yeah and guess how much I had to spend on SxS cards when I bought the EX1
Remember how amazing FCP X
Never really looked at it, the first time I did I think it was version 6 it seemed like a toy .. AVID since 1996
Too soon to tell.
I agree let's wait and see. I'll give you my report when mine arrives.
I prbably missed a few points
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+1 @Shian I'm sure there's a long list for cameras much more expensive that you wouldn't even consider using on a 'serious production', so it seems you're trying to put it in a place it might not belong. Just the fact that you are doing that really says that it's got real serious potential.
IMO- The gap this camera fills is for guys like me who strive to compete image-wise with the 'big boys', but on a much lower budget and minimal crew.
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@kavadni Nice common sense post.
@Shian Having just read through this debate, seems to me you make some valid points, but your choice of words is a bit harsh for something that hasn't shipped yet and there are some generalizations that are far reaching. I agree with @kavadni that your logic of 100 people on set is not the primary goal for this camera unless it's a 2nd.. Much smaller IMO.
BM does have a history of delivering working products and I wouldn't compare them to Apple in regards to launching new products. Zillion dollar company that pushing their will people to small company trying to help film & video peeps.
In a perfect world, we all would wait. I ordered one and am keeping my fingers crossed that it will work out for me. I have no intentions of spending 6k to make it work. I have a smalldp monitor and lots of storage. I'm guessing I"ll spend $400-$800 on storage cards for the camera, make use of my many batteries or possible add to them. I'm also one of those guys that aren't mainstream and don't use a MAC. Don't think it's a concern. My PC programs run any files I throw at them. Slightest concern is Quick Time performance on PC's if I don't use DNG, which will happen often.
This debate seems to fit my friends definition of a what he calls "mental masturbation". All in all, points have been made, maybe it's time to move on and sit tight till the camera comes out.
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The zebras are selectable in 5% increments from 70% right now and changed in the menu.
While there are only 3 WB presets, this is less relevant in a RAW workflow.
ISO and Sensor calibration is still being done. You also might have been monitoring in their LOGish mode.
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