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Fine Tweaks in GH2 Operations
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  • I have to agree with LPowell, and James Cameron has a point about 60p.
  • @qwerty123 saying something is ugly and telling someone they can't tell the difference, or they shouldn't do something, are two separate things. I never said don't do it, I said it's ugly. If people want to do that, have fun.

    Again, too each their own, but asking for it is valid. To a lot of us it's important.

    And I already said, a number of times, specialty shots (action, etc) of course. Two or three times now.
  • Here's a chart of movie camera specs:

    180 is hardly the only number there. Incidentally, 172.8 degrees at 24 fps is 1/50 s.
  • @balazer

    I guess somewhere in one of my posts I said that 180 degree is the only shutter angle available. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that. If you show me where I said that, I'll go back and readjust my post.

    What I meant to say was: 180 degree shutters @ 24P in my working reality (where I make my living) is very, very important. It is one step--small as it may be to some, in capturing a cinematic image that people are paying for, and that most of us prefer.

    There are people who cannot tell the difference between 30P and 24P, that is fine.

    The only reason this thread is actually even still relevant to me is because you told me that I cannot see a difference.

    Again, use whatever you want. I have no issues with the way I've been working for years, I don't like the look of 30P for anything other than commercials or documentaries, I don't like shooting higher than a 180 Degree shutter for standard cinematic image acquisition, where standard is defined as the average scene that does not involve action or a special need for a tighter shutter angle.. I would rather shoot 1/45 (Canon) or 1/40 (GH2), that means my eyes see something different than yours? Well...

    I think that's okay.

    Let me know if that still doesn't make sense.
  • O.k., you can see a difference. I've eaten my hat.

    But I disagree with this idea that using a shutter angle of exactly 180 degrees is important to cinema. 180 degrees is certainly the most common shutter angle, and no doubt you've watched so many films that your eyes have been trained to recognize it. But hardly anyone else can detect such a small difference as between 180 and 172.8 degrees, consciously or subconsciously. The evidence of that is very simply that more than a few film cameras have fixed shutter angles that are close to, but different from 180 degrees: 172.8, 165, 160, 200. I'd be willing to bet that more than a few movies and TV shows have more than a little footage shot with those cameras, and no one is saying that they don't look cinematic because the shutter angle was a few percent different from 180 degrees.

    I guess we can't resolve this debate. You say using an angle of exactly 180 degrees is important, but I don't hear anyone else saying it. I can't go to Hollywood and take a survey. Maybe you can.

    Just don't ask Peter Jackson. He'll say something crazy like you should shoot at 48 fps with a 270 degree shutter.
  • @balazer

    Most people can't tell the difference between a Gibson and an Ibanez, either. Does that make it any less valid for the artist who CHOOSES to make a purchase based on experience or piece of mind? No, it doesn't.

    This isn't a debate on if most people can tell. It isn't even a debate to begin with. You're attempting to convince me that 180 degrees is what? Bad? Old? Uncool? We choose the tools and methods we choose for piece of mind, to be able to create without the fear of a technical mis-step. At least that's how most working professionals I know choose to operate. Maybe it's different in other places.

    You work how you want, I work how I want. Where I work, this is how things are done, it doesn't matter if it's old or I've been trained to recognize it, it's a specific look digital cinema or analog film. Commercial, Music Video, Narrative, and sometimes even Documentary.

    Your shutter argument strangely only applies to cameras that would more than likely be used for high speed or special applications (crash cams--Which noone uses anymore in exchange of digital besides film purists, action cinematography, etc. ). But you already knew that, I am very sure.

    I am in "hollywood", sincerely do not need a survey to know that I'm far from alone on this. Your mileage may vary due to area and experience.

    We all know what 48P and 60P are for as far as cinematic image acquisition formats and delivery: 3D. We aren't talking about 3D, it's irrelevant information.

    The bottom line is that you think one way, I think another way. It is not important for me to convince you or try to get you to see it my way, it is important for me to respond when you tell me how to work, what I can or cannot see, so on and so forth.

    Now that we've stated our "personal-views", we can definitely move on, me thinks?
  • @kholi
    I remember seeing Collateral in the theatre and thinking that a number of scenes looked like poo from the slow shutter speed, like a soap opera.

    Are there any movies that come to mind that you think use a 1/50 shutter?

    I'm going to try setting my 7d to 1/45 and see if I can tell a difference over the holidays.
  • 30P skeeves me out, as do the other higher acquisition framerates being touted by people like Cameron and Jackson (I'm not speaking of overcranking, of course). It's true that the 24P I've seen most of my life has been on 60hz displays with 3:2 pulldown and judder, but I can still see a hell of a lot of difference between that cadence and 30P/48P/60P displayed at those speeds. One says cinema to me, the other says soap opera. I don't see my feelings about that changing or evolving even if it becomes the trend in high-budget 3D spectacles. That's not really my ideal of great cinema anyway, and I'm perfectly okay if the filmmakers in question want to do that with their films, because I'm not a fan. If Michael Mann did it, I would have to take a look and reconsider, though - I did enjoy the much-maligned Miami Vice and Public Enemies despite the nutty shutter angles and general 'video' feel.
  • @Oedipax

    I was just going to recommend that JP check out Public Enemies. I've only seen part of it, but I frowned very hard when viewing that portion. LoL.

    Nothing wrong with that, though! I know a lot of people that enjoyed both o those movies and were never bothered by the video style. He makes money, right?
  • I don't know if I could tell the difference between 48th and 50th of a second, but 24p and 30p? Seriously, 30p has that LIVE feel, 24p is more hypnotic and filmic. Most anyone can see a difference in a matter of seconds. Two distinct looks -- I sure don't want to see narrative at 30p.
  • Rather than try for 48/60p out of the LSI - probably too much - how about in-camera 24p slow-mo from the 60p sensor output in 1080p?
  • I have do an animation project (manga feeling) in 30p but i'm live in a pal country.. Why? Because 30p give me more motion! So simply.

    Don't masturbate your brain, guys^^.
    Retinian persistence'll be always subjectiv.
    Eyes are such different ;-)
  • Animation IMO should be 48 or 60P. Video Game cut scenes at 30P look amazing.
  • @kholi, I'm saying that while 180 degrees is the standard for 24 fps, 172.8 is close enough for a lot of professional work. Plenty of movies shot in Europe use that shutter angle, no doubt. (and I'm sure you know why)
  • You insist on making a point... what would you like me to tell you so that we can drop the subject?
  • Excellent.
  • Hello Guys I surely enjoyed reading all that...But I am a beginner in making motion pictures, I did a lot of stills I wonder...It's probably a very basic question but I don't actually have the answer...

    1-Do you mean that you leave the shutter always on the same speed to avoid this flicker effect and control exposure only with aperture and ISO???

    2-How do you get the Save Private Ryan kinda feel ? I tried to dial it on the
    GH2 and couldn't...

    3-Now that my GH2 is hacked i put Driftwood Seaquake in it and now when i press Rec the ISO function is on auto iso no matter what i dialed is it normal??

  • As to question 2, you get the Saving Private Ryan feel (I assume you mean the battle scenes) by using a very fast shutter - maybe 1/1000.
  • Regarding 3, yes it's normal. Your ISO hasn't changed to normal, it's just a bug of unlocking the higher iso numbers (I think).

    Also, since you should ask these questions in the beginner's topic.
  • for 1 you should not change your shutter unless you what to change the motion blur of the movements, ideally you have a desired look (for noise and depth of field) you set your aperture and you iso and then manipulate the light to be able to achieve that look. Here we are talking Neutral Density filters for camera or for windows, indoor lights, reflectors ect.

    off topic thou
  • @AlexManta @cbrandin re the Private Ryan look, it's a 45degree shutter on a 35mm film camera; you don't dial in a shutter speed, you dial in shutter angle and film rate, be that 24fps, 25fps etc On a digital camera, dialling in a higher shutter speed should give the effect - 180 degree shutter (film) being the equivalent of 1/50th second shutter speed (digital) for 25fps, therefore 45 degree shutter is 1/200th second shutter speed for 25fps. Great explanation on it all here -

  • Ah. Noob on here, just realised I'm nearly a year late on that post... ;)