I think we must close it. All things are clear now, more or less.

If someone want to ask anything you can PM me.

Thing is, people are not treated equally. That's precisely the problema.

Wow. I rest my case. I think people on your side of the argument will see your point and people on the other side will see mine. We don't need to take it any further here.

Sorry Vitaliy, this is starting to sound a bit like your country's public stance on homosexuality. I don't believe we are able to have this conversation at this time for reasons of our inability to relate on the subject. Personally, I have quite a number of friends that are homosexual (and successful members of society and economy), so your statement falls so short of the reality I see that it's borderline propaganda in my view. And I can't argue propaganda, that's like trying to talk over a fog horn. For example, I don't know a single unemployed homosexual, in fact, 2 of the most successful people I know are gay (and one of them is an engineer who went to stanford - go fucking figure). On the other hand, out of the 5 heterosexual guys I housemated with in my 20's, 2 of them are now unemployed and have been for some time. And furthermore: the decline of engineers (and ALL working professionals) coming out of the USA has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with the education budget getting deferred to military spending. Trying to blame that on a more accepting culture of homosexuality is both laughable and frightening, simultaneously.

Oh, I agree, if that's all that was needed to get that 14 year old boy to believe he can, then that's awesome, and thats what happened to many of us (studied great filmmakers-> wanted to do that-> pursued). But to answer your question: Hope. Thats how. Something he maybe has not had before. Maybe it's just the inciting incident to give him the courage to leave kentucky or whatever and move to San Fransisco to finally be the person he feels he is inside. Of course my example was hypothetical, but it's not far fetched in the least. The trapped scenario many repressed homosexuals find themselves in is a state of 'Learned Helplessness' and it's one of the things that often keeps abused wives loyal to their abusive husbands or a creates a relationship dynamic like stockholm syndrome: it's about people who have no fight left. Anyways, I don't want to get into a psychological debate about the implications of repressive environments, but if you still don't get my point, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Vitaliy, i think it was you who misinterpreted my post. My point was that engineers don't need successful public figures to help some people believe that being an engineer 'ok', because engineers don't HAVE that battle, but many homosexuals do currently, hence peoples need for public figures and public pride such as this. Imagine the 14 year old gay kid living deep south who has never even HEARD of a successful and proud (and HAPPY) gay person. Now he has. Mission accomplished by Tim Cook. That alone could be life changing for that 14 year old boy. I think I get where you're coming from: aspiration of a world where we wouldn't NEED this, but wake up! We still fucking need this and to say we don't just exemplifies your distance from the subject. The day gay people stop getting beat up, talked down to or discriminated against in any way is the day we won't need people to make public statements like Tim Cooks.

@endotoxic "If the world was gay that would be the end of human race. Gay is bad for humanity nature. Nowdays being gay is accepted as a cultural thing. Many things are wrong but accepted in this corrupted capitalist world."

The world is overpopulated. We need more gay people, not less.

In contrast I am far more interested in company like Aramco, their products, and their CEO Khalid Al Falih, because I use their products everyday. I bet everyone on this forum uses their products, EVERY DAY, although not too many know the company or who Khalid Al Falih is

:-)

Values are more important.

accepting an aberrant nature as a normal aproach of extending life is corrupted. Most bad things in this modern world are corrupted but accepted. Reading this shit for 2pages draw 2 conclutions

To many people here talk based on nothing more than current media posture. Accepting gaynes as normal thing is an indicator of a well corrupted society, just like money.

It's been see as "trendy" to be OR act gay for some time, how many actually have male to male sex. I would guess that more act gay than actually engage in the physical side of sharing their butt-holes. Appearing to be gay can have it's rewards, cool job with trendy company in certain industries, associations with fashion organisations etc.

I don't think full blown (pardon the pun) Gayship is widespread, most i believe are fakes.

If the world was gay that would be the end of human race. Gay is bad for humanity nature. Nowdays being gay is accepted as a cultural thing. Many things are wrong but accepted in this corrupted capitalist world.

Most people are gay because Media tells them they are? (Yes, I know I'm paraphrasing. There are too many paragraphs to even try to quote.) What book would you recommend people read on matters such as these? Mien Kamph?

LOL.

It is astonishing that media can do to unprepared minds. Astonishing. He does not support main media trend (may be even support, but providing opposing arguments - worse for him!) ? Must be like Hitler (also media Hitler, not real one, as history books are for ners!), of course. :-)

But I just ask about fact that show otherwise. I do not tell that it is media only, any sensory input.

why isn't the definition to be sexually attracted to the same sex?

Because it is not definition I asked. I asked to define such quality that they are born with. As attraction to same sex does not mean anything. Can be just perception, may be temporary.

Understand, but i suppose just disagree fundamentally. Pedophilia may have been 'ok' before but actually no, it was never ok. there was a victim. with homosexuality, i don't believe there is a victim. That's why i don't accept the connection. If you feel (or are arguing) that there are victims if homosexuality is accepted, and that these victims are people who are converted to being gay by media, then i see why you are invoking it to and extent. I just don't agree that people are turned gay by being exposed to it. I believe that being exposed to homosexuality allows them to be who they are.

Well, I provided arguments and example with sister. My lesbian sister will never have children. If she was in different place and with different input she will have three. Three people killed just by words.

Btw pedophilia absolutely does not mean rape, you check can laws on it even.

Understand, but i'd argue that is not enough argument to give in to homophobia

Well, no one here defends homophobia (it is so fuzzy thing, btw!). I just show complexity of the thing. Media just want you to believe to simplicity of it and in how any simple solution is good.

Ok, you have to tell me how to make the blue highlights :)

'if pedophile is defined by some natural phenomenon and is born such, we are restricting his right. Same way as gay right where restricted. You think that being pedophile and doing such thing is a crime. But most societies had absolutely same thought toward gay people very short time ago. What makes you think it won't change?'

Understand, but i suppose just disagree fundamentally. Pedophilia may have been 'ok' before but actually no, it was never ok. there was a victim. with homosexuality, i don't believe there is a victim. That's why i don't accept the connection. If you feel (or are arguing) that there are victims if homosexuality is accepted, and that these victims are people who are converted to being gay by media, then i see why you are invoking it to and extent. I just don't agree that people are turned gay by being exposed to it. I believe that being exposed to homosexuality allows them to be who they are.

'What if some parents think (and have some backing facts) that it is media that can make their children into gay or lesbian and want to fight to not allow it? What is the difference?'

see above, but also the difference is that homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against because of ignorant position of some people.

'Well, I asked about some definition of gay and how it can be determinated if one is such.'

why isn't the definition to be sexually attracted to the same sex?

'As percentage of gay is dependent on the country and media/society politics, almost same as religion.'

I argue it is % of openly gay..

'So, defending gay right arguments (as in case of their oppression they have terrible life and can't come out) become arguments for destroying people life (because same people in other place have perfect family, love their spouse of opposite sex and have big number of children, never even though about being gay or such).'

Understand, but i'd argue that is not enough argument to give in to homophobia. yes, some existing homosexuals may be made to feel bad because it would challenge their repressed feeling, but ultimately don't we want a world where, as the second poster said, no one cares about sexuality? Be openly gay, that is fine, deny it, that is fine, but it is your choice, not a choice society made for you.