Just a few things to think about in sound: first, most movies and videos don't have very good sound. Second, most people buy the wrong gear. And third, the way you use the gear is more important than the gear. So for example if someone recommends the DR 680, and has tested it hundreds of times, and it is cheap and sounds good, statistics show that many people will read about it, do careful research, and then buy something worse. That's just the way the world works.
So the question is, how do you know if you are one of the people who buys the right gear or the wrong gear, and also if you know how to use it?
Well, as it turns out, as compared to ten years ago, it is really easy to test this stuff. Learning how to use it is a more difficult matter. One thing for sure is that there is no point in reading online advice unless the person has actually recorded something and put it online. But it still is a good idea to just learn the basics. Or just buy the FR2LE or the 680 and stop worrying. Stress is bad.
One thing to remember is that shotgun mics don't sound very good. That's why the mic with the best reputation, the Schoeps MK41, is a supercardioid, not a shotgun mic. So when recording dialog, or anything else, remember that the shotgun mic is very, very useful, and you have to have one, but don't use it if you don't need to, because they don't sound very good.
@Spacewig Many ppl, myself included, have extensively tested have tested the noise in the Fostex FR2LE and the preamps are super quiet and very high quality, and they are more than good enough for dialog. There is absolutely no need to add an extra box and cables and use line in.
These pocket recorders are built up from LSI. LSI preamps have taken a big leap forward in the last few years. So the latest Zoom recorder, the H6, delivers very effective preamps.
@Vitaliy_Kiselev Yes I read this thread and I am also considering the mic you talked about. I'll check Shipito but i dont like custom surprises! :-) The DR-680 seems to be one of the cheapest external recorders with good preamps.
@spacewig @Peter123456 thanks, i am also considering this route (cheap recorder and preamp). It adds complexity but also versatility as I can record in different ways: camera+preamp+mic (avoiding audio sync.) , recorder+preamp+mic (max. quality) and recorder+lavalier (small and portable kit easy to hide). If the USBpre needs a computer i'll research other options...trying to find a "cheap" and good quality preamp.
Careful with the Sound Devices USB Pre. Only version 2 allows you to operate it on an external battery. The first version requires an early 32bit PC/laptop (maybe Mac is also an option) in order to record. It doesn't work with Win7 or Win8 or 64bit systems. That’s why it’s price is so low.
The following are only opinions:
I am in the process of dialogue editing a short where an ntg-2 and a Sennheiser mkh416 (both shotgun mics) were used. I find the NTG-2 sounds aggressive in the upper-mids; quite an unflattering timbre compared to the 416 which is much smoother. This mic can sometimes be found under $400.
Also, forget about the quality of the preamps found in digital portable recorders as they are almost always shit unless you are paying mucho dinero$. These recoders are aimed at the musician market which buy these almost exclusively to record instruments/vocals/rehearsals which are much, much louder than dialogue thereby masking internal noise and rendering the issue moot. Use only the recorder line-in and invest in a decent pre-amp. There are many suggestions floating around. I found a used sound devices mixpre for $350 which is a great unit. Another very affordable alternative (but that requires modification) is to buy an older sound devices usb-pre (they can often be had for a steal) and power it via the USB connection with a portable battery.
OMG I totally agree with Vitaliy, must have another whiskey (glug)
What about the mics?, i am trying to find the cheapest mic...with good audio quality :-)
Check one for recent discussions. I refereed to cheap hyper mike. Ask @Rambo about it.
I understand the DR 680 is great but the price is high here in Europe i thought is was overkill. I dont want to spend twice, so maybe I should rise my budget.
You can buy it in US, ship to Shipito or other intermediary, make your own customs declaration :-) And hope for the best.
Thanks for the feedback @DrDave, but could you please be a bit more specific. I am real beginner in audio and, while i understand that there is not one only correct choice your opinion would be quite valuable.
I understand the DR 680 is great but the price is high here in Europe and I thought its features were overkill. I dont want to spend twice, so maybe I should rise my budget.
I also have seen good reviews about the Fostex FR-2 LE and also considering things like the juicedlink+cheap audio recorder. I have seen that for low budget you like the H2n.
What about the mics?, i am trying to find the cheapest mic...with good audio quality :-)
I stumbled across this forum, and note that my name is being taken in vain here :-)
My assertion that 37 is the optimum gain on the Zoom H1 for all typical recording is based on the use of the Internal microphones. When you plug in an external mic, that is an entirely different ballgame.
To check the level at which overload occurs with the H1 at a gain setting of 37, I mounted my Sound Level Meter alongside the H1 and found that clipping starts at almost exactly 100dbA. Which is an (uncomfortably loud) sound level you are unlikely to exceed in normal video scenarios :) Obviously, if you are in a Disco you will need to lower the gain somewhat :-)
I wouldn't use any of the items you mention, but I suggest you try them first and see if you like them. Mics are like headphones in a way, different ppl have different preferences. The DR 680 is a real bargain, of course.
I am planing to buy some hardware to improve and learn about audio recording. I dont want to spend a lot of money but I would like to be able to provide a good audio quality.
After some researching I am still not sure about some hardware choices and I would appreciate your advice! I am planning to do some narrative work and interviews.
This is the kit i am considering:
External recorder:
I was considering the Tascam Dr-40. The price is ok and it has more features than I need, but it seems that the preamps are bad, and, if it is possible, I don't want to compromise audio quality.
I also like the Rolad R-05 but it doesn't have XLR inputs and I think this can be a big limitation. Is it?
Using Rolad R-05 or the Zoom H1 with and external preamp seem to be other options but it increases complexity and i don't know much about preamps.
The Roland R-26 seems the way to go but it is a bit expensive.
¿Any other option with reasonable price and good preamps?
Indoor mic:
Superlux S241
Outdoor mic:
At the moment i don't have a clear candidate. The NTG-2 seems to be ok but not very good. The MXL FR 300 is unavailable, and i don't know other options for this price range.
Lavalier:
Some cheap one like this: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/6152/ultradisk-lavalier-microphone
¿Any advice about this? ¿Any pice of hardware i am missing? Thanks a lot!
@symph I was intrigued by your "recorder" video. Recorders (or blokfluit in Dutch) present an unusual challenge for microphones as the harmonics are very unevenly distributed and you also get artifacts in the form of resultant tones. So I did a quick comparison with a bunch of different mics. First I had to locate a bunch of recorder players, but that was pretty easy as they are well organized and have websites.
This is to a certain extent a matter of taste, but I actually found the the Rode microphones to be the least persuasive for handling this kind of sound, with a strong high frequency emphasis as well as what I would describe as internal capsule resonance, and I ranked the winners as follows in order of preference: Sennheiser MKH 20, Schoeps MK2H, Sennheiser MKH 40, Schoeps MK 41, Schoeps MK 21, Oktava small diaphragm omni, Oktava SD cardioid. The Oktavas were the budget winners.
After testing the mics, I had a choice to make--the omnis sounded slightly better, but picked up too much reflections and extraneous noise, so I went with the two MKH 40s straight into the Fostex. Ideally, one could use an array of four to eight mics, but I wanted straight stereo into the box. And here is the result:
Can you guys help me ? I have a Rode Videomic Pro and I want to buy an external recorder to use with my GH3. I was thinking in the H2n or the Tascam DR -07 . Question is : CAN I attach 2 lavalier mics in the 3.5 input using a split cable so I can record interviews with 2 people ? I know the audio would be recorded in the same track , but I think thats not gonna be issue for me .
answering the original post, my own setup is probably the simplest and cheapest: EM320E + Zoom H1 (mic is inside a Rode Blimp on a Rode Boom pole, connected with a custom made Neutrik XLR-to-Neutrik 3.5mm Canare cable). I use this so far for tests in various settings (indoors, streets, woods, some Folley etc) in preparation for a short film.
Results: it sounds pretty much okey, but room echo for internal shots can get annoying. I use EM320E in Tele mode (because I like it's "vintage" characteristics), and the levels on my ZoomH1 are usually set at 65-70, so there is some hiss (whether from mic or ZoomH1, I don't know). I then clean most of the hiss in post and double the mono signal into both channels, and it sounds pretty good and "dramatic".
Now, I'm thinking of gradually improving and upgrading this setup. Some possible upgrade options include: Roland R-26 recorder, Rode NTG-2, Rode NTG-3, second hand Sennheiser MKH 416, Oktava MK-012 with Joly mod, Sound Devices MixPre. But I don't know which investment would be the best bang for the buck. Any advice?
@itimjim I'm thinking of improving my setup and thinking of getting a MixPre like you did. In that case, ZoomH1 would be no more than a device to record the signal. Do you think it would work? or would I need to get a better audio recorder like a Roland R-26 too?
To clarify: I wouldn't always use it handheld, as surround wouldn't be of much use then (except for recording my breathing and moving sounds perhaps...). I would also put it in the middle of the space for getting immersive/ambient sound, for example.
Hi guys,
I've been messing with my GH2's internal mic for way too long. Time to upgrade.
My main use is documenting art works (audiovisual performances/installations). Mostly my own and from time to time other artists'. The videos are intended mainly for online promotion.
I'm looking for a compact box with internal mics (not planning to use externals mics soon but could be nice to have inputs for future upgrades) and fits well in the hot shoe. Are the larger ones (DR-100 etc) comfortable mounted like that? Are they ok for handheld use or should I really get a smaller (H1 etc) for handheld?
Currently the H2n looks interesting to me, with its surround modes that should come in handy when documenting the kind of immersive installations I'm into. Any reasons not to take it? Guess it will look a bit funny when mounted on a cam but it doesn't look to heavy or cumbersome for handheld.
I'd like to keep it under €200.
Tanx, dtr
For a multi-cam shoot, I've found nothing more convenient than using an AF100 as a tripod-mounted, video-synced, 2-channel audio recorder. The built-in XLR's, manual level controls, and flexible signal padding and routing make it a pleasure to work with for an audio engineer. In addition, I find the AF100's video waveform monitor very useful for analyzing exposure issues that are often difficult to spot on the GH2, which I've calibrated the AF100's exposure and color balance to match.
For a live event, I typically want a fixed, wide-angle view of the whole stage for use as a master timeline, and the AF100 handles this reliably with more than adequate video quality. The GH2, OTOH, is ideal for close-ups and dynamic handheld shots. Most importantly, leaving the audio to the AF100 makes it a much saner proposition to shoot live video with the GH2. I also have a Zoom H4N, and it's great for portable 4-channel recordings, but the preamps are noisy and the digital controls are annoying to fuss with on a shoot.
After several revolutions, including 7 or 8 weeks with the Fostex DC-R302, I bit-the-bullet and went full top end double system. For basic 2 camera things I use a SD 702T, a Denecke Tsc smart slate, either a Sony 77 lav or an AT 899 for interviews. If I have a boom person I will use my Senn 416 in the Rycote S300, but lately I've been using the AT BP4073 in m-s mode sending the two signals discretely to one channel on the 702t, the m signal is actually more than adequate as a standalone shotgun and if I want a stereo image I can matrix it with the S channel in post.
I would normally hire a sound guy (budget allowing) but in a lot of places that I work there is no-one available with the gear that I want and I will end up training a P.A. on how everything works. In a pinch I can use the whole system OMB when I am shooting something like a 2 camera interview.
Run-n-gun handheld I often run an AT 897 wearing a Rycote softie off a hot shoe mount right into the GH2. I also have a Tascam DR100 mkII that I've used a couple times along with a dumb slate and either a mic in or the onboard mics.
After squeezing out every bit of information on this forum about sound equipment ;-) I got myselfe a Marantz PMD 661 recorder (used) and a MXL FR-300 microphone (new) - thanks @Vitaliy_Kiselev for the tip.
I have hardly any experience with audio equipment, but as far as I can tell this combo sounds really good. Very clean, low selfe noise, good signal even from a distance and very good built quality. I even ordered a second MXL FR-300 for stereo recordings (MXL stopped producing the FR-300, so I had to order it from Australia - very strange, because the follow up microphone is not ready for mass production yet.)
Also bear in mind that your digital metering on the cheaper end products will not show true peak values or inter sample peaks - you aren't recording to tape be conservative, clipped audio is nigh on impossible to rescue - low level audio with broadband noise is easily rescued. IMHO hire a sound guy if you're looking for stress free audio - don't be a jack of all trades, they're cheap nowadays as most productions seem to think the 18 year old work experience can swing the boom.
Always keep in mind post audio cannot polish a turd - you wouldn't use a pinhole lens to film your epic - treat sound the same - bad sound + good picture = bad product full stop. Don't worry about bit rates etc etc just get the microphone in the right place, set gain levels correctly, and if you have to use personal mics - listen to them after you've placed them - a mic capsule scraping over cloth / skin can't be fixed - it's the equivalent of someone standing in front of your lens when filming - you wouldn't use or stand for it - treat sound the same. Sound is easy - if it sounds shit - it is.
I double that. Great little thing, besides the missing XLR outputs. Kinda flimsy when you want to feed the signal into a camera using the 3.5mm plugs...
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