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RAW makes obsolete all your skill
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  • i dont think it turns into a masterpiece all by itself, but if you are in a budget and cant afford to light up properly it can help to find a style of your own without loosing too much quality

  • LOL...I just stumbled accross this thread for the first time and read like the first 6 pages before calling it quits. What is funny is how people take @GravitateMediaGroup's comments serioulsy. The internet can be a funny place sometimes where we just keep getting lost in translation. If there was a "facetious" button or "sarcastic' button for him to use then I think folks would have not been so offended early on. But nevertheless it made some comical reading...especially since he wouldn't back down...lol. At the end of the day I get his point. He was never disagreeing with what anyone here was saying. Nowadays many folks do think of themselves as "photographers" and have convinced uninformed people to shell out their money to pay them for their...um...(un)professional work. It's just like any other craft....like filmaking and the plethera of so-called "filmakers" or "DPs" in various forums. The tools are so cheap nowadays that anyone can place that title next to their name (and they do). Still...there are those who have been doing their crafts professionally for decades who end up quitting or writing blogs full of rants because the (amateur) competition is getting in their way. It happens. Just adapt and move on. Me personally...before I was a rocket scientist (I hate that terminology) I once made a living as an audio engineer (part time). In the 90's you could find studios to work in NYC or anywhere in the upper east coast. But it was also during that time major studios started closing down some well know spots and you started to see a great deal of home studios emerge. All of a sudden everyone became an audio engineer. Suger Honey Iced Tea happens.

  • @Ian_T thanks for the resume.

    I believe there are several layers of reality, where there are levels of experience and learning. Just like baby's and old man's, as in photography or any other art, only when you hit the wall and realized that even if you dedicate 4 lifetimes in doing the same you would never get to that point where you'd be completely satisfied with the results. Then and only then you start to become mature in what you do.

    So does raw or what ever you want and whats next to be invented does people better on what they do, well if your reality is yes, you are not mature enough, keep taking pictures and the illusion and dreams of the child will eventually become less and less important. All is down to what you have to say to others, paid or non paid job. Technology or not, Photography like painting and writing or any mean of expression is just an excuse to don't explode internally and share those things you cant by regular means. And make a living it that road.

    And its just simple, the work speaks for itself you like a picture,that's a good one for you, that's it. Even if the photographer used a camera or not, who cares. Did you received a message, great. Try to transmit that message by yourself.

    Its a real waste of time trying to find sense where there isn't none, and talking about how good a carpenter or pseudo carpenter would or not be if he has a wood or metal hammer. Common wake up and see the furniture.

    Is like staring at the wise mans finger while is pointing to the universe.

    ;-)

  • @leonbeas Hah..yeah…my point is that I was there once myself…and sort of still am. Before I moved on to a different profession the recording studio that I was working with went the way of the do-do bird (in Connecticut). Other larger studios in NY were closing down. Not too long before that started happening a lot of producers kept coming into the studios with MPC’s and laptops etc. Next thing you know a lot of session musicians were…basically “not needed” anymore. The ability for anyone to create music at home became more and more of a reality. That opened my eyes and I followed suit.

    Honestly though to this day I still hate to mix anything I’ve done musically down to a “lowly” MP3..lol. But…I do love the idea that these fast climbs in technology has allowed more and more people to do things they could not of otherwise done or afford to do in the not so distant past. I noticed that this bred a lot more talented people coming out of the woodworks today but this ALSO includes a lot more crap coming out there as well. You get the good with the bad.

    It doesn’t matter whether it’s Photography/RAW or Engineering/DAW, applications like PhotoShop and Nuendo basically cut the middle man out for a lot of people and created a whole new way of getting your ideas out there. Whether or not people ewho use these applications can be considered "professionals" is another (or expanded) topic in of itself. If you are making money as being a wedding photgrapher just because you bought some camera and software editing suite then wouldn't that be your profession? Whether you are good at it or not shouldn't change the definition of what's a professional right? So the use RAW like I mentioned above is making it easier for people to label themselves as such. Maybe Webster's needs to expand upon that definition (I don't know ...I'm just throwing this out there).

  • Clearly its obvious and we both agree that if this new hammer lets you tell the story you want with half the effort at half the time, welcome new hammer :-)

    That's not even into question, but sometimes to achieve specific results or to resolve problems (it's what we all do most) you need to get to that old used hammer sometimes, and the good thing is you know how to do it.

    That's why some people are a technicians and others are creatives, some are both and some other don't know what they are. But competition is good, as you say more people with the tools more ideas more creativity, more inspiration you grow and get more active.

    At the end as i mentioned in my last post, "And its just simple, the work speaks for itself you like a picture,that's a good one for you, that's it. Even if the photographer used a camera or not, who cares. Did you received a message, great. Try to transmit the message by yourself."

    Cheers @Ian_T

  • @Ian_T

    Btw, cutting out middleman is not the best idea. As labor division is driving force of the progress.

    As I repeated multiple time probability that someone could make all aspects on good level is tiny.

  • @Vitaliy You’re absolutely correct. It reminds me of the saying “you can’t be all things to all people.”

    EDIT: Thanks for that @jpbturbo What he says might be common knowledge to a lot of us but if more people heard that first part of what he said then they would not give up so easily on their dreams. It is normal to really "suck" when you first start out in the creativity process. Funny how he called his own earlier work "moronic"..lol

  • I think at the opposite end of the spectrum from what Ira Glass said are those type of people who absolutely can not view their work objectively because it is something they have created themselves.

    "Imagine that, you know, you built a table," said Daniel Mochon, a Tulane University marketing professor, who has studied the phenomenon. "Maybe it came out a little bit crooked. Probably your wife or your neighbor would see it for what it is, you know? A shoddy piece of workmanship. But to you that table might seem really great, because you're the one who created it. It's the fruit of your labor. And that is really the idea behind the Ikea Effect."

    The Ikea Effect on NPR

  • We are our own worst critics. I think that's true in everything we do.

  • @Ian_T

    at the end of the day, explosive news regarding RAW video (bmcpocket, 4k raw for $4k, all the Canon ML stuff) takes the internet by storm and it makes this topic somewhat even more true/realistic. It's not that RAW makes ones skills, it's just the flexibility it offers. A director may not know anything about lightning, but if he knows he has RAW to his advantage he may not care so much about lightning and possibly an additional expense. Anybody that knows anything about cameras/filmmaking would surely agree that the more flexibility a camera has the better, correct? A $3k Canon MK3's stock just went up because a group of people gave an already great camera RAW video flexibility, on top of MULTIPLE other options that have already been available.

    I really didn't want to post on this topic but I do respect that you see where I'm coming from and see the bigger picture. Most people just skipped around the topic and assumed that I get on my knees and pray to RAW every night.

  • @GravitateMediaGroup

    I agree flexibility is good YES.

    But remember having more flexibility does't make anyone win a gold medal, you have to practice and feel the pain of being bad at what you do, until you get to that point where flexibility helps you instead of just making you look like a "rubber band"...

  • +1 @leonbeas @GMC you are still so wrong. You don't think like a professional at all, your thinking is point and shoot. You don't get it and never will.

    That director of yours who doesn't know and care about lighting will pay someone (me) a fortune in post to grade/relight the footage until it looks cinematic, right? This is what all that RAW flexibility bought him after all. Umm no. He doesn't know or care for better. He will go as far as finding a press-this-button plugin from Magic Bullet.

    As @leonbeas says it best, "you have to practice and feel the pain of being bad at what you do, until you get to that point where flexibility helps you". For me that was buying a used DVX100 in 2009 and another one in 2011! and shooting documentary for broadcast. Did it feel like a straightjacket with 6 stops of DR? Sure did. Did I produce subpar footage? Sure did. Am I a better shooter with 10+ stops of dynamic range BECAUSE of that? You bet.

    Do I think about repositioning the subject or lighting his face in daylight now? Oh noes, but the fidgety Mk3 RAW has 14 stops of DR now, you could shoot against the light, it's so easy and flexible! It only takes a couple of power windows/shapes and tracking in your grading app!

    Rant over. You're hopeless because you're a random guy with a magic bullet/point and shoot mentality.

  • I can agree that the skills are learned with lesser equipment.

    On the other hand if we look at the digital photography as an example where 12-bit/14-bit RAW and 8-bit JPEG has been co-existing side by side for nearly a decade. Is using 8-bit JPEG a sign of true professional today? No! Is using 14-RAW stills is a sign of true professional today? No! Yet many professional photographers today chose 14-bit RAW stills over of 8-bit JEPEGs not because they don't know how to light properly.

    To answer the thread question - all skills would not be made obsolete by RAW video. It will force professionals to perfect their skills even more to stand out from the rest of the auto-feature packed, raw-video camcorder owner crowd.

  • @seeker interesting point, just a better mouse trap. As I was laboriously developing in Lightroom pics I took over Easter of my nephews, my sister goes "Ah so your camera doesn't take normal pictures like ours", with a somewhat quizzical look (like in "try in two sentences or don't bother"). So I'm like "As I'm pushing these sliders around imagine I'm in a dark room pouring chemicals and shaking trays just the right amount. Your camera does that for you when you take the picture, but badly".

    She understood the analogy, and will never be interested in learning "pouring chemicals and shaking trays", she wants the red button with whatever comes out. GMC's fallacy is there will be an "iAuto" button/workflow for RAW that will be sooo good and knowledgeable, that any production disaster (I bet he doesn't think in terms of "production") can be turned into watchable work. Yes RAW gives us flexibility in post (and a chance to save material that might have been unusable otherwise), but people like my sister and GMC don't want post.

    @GMC, if I'm wrong about you, I extend my apology and invite you to register tomorrow at this free Scratch webinar discussing Cinealta F5/F55/F65 RAW workflows: http://www2.assimilateinc.com/e/5312/nealta-event-registration-html/tfmwj/762379155

  • Raw is great.. but it will not make you a photographer We had raw for may, many decades.. it was called 35mm film.. and i saw lots of crap shot with it you could print it.. you could scan it.. once they became affordable you could even have a scan at home (in case you like Photoshop bullshit) and people still made crap having a canvas does not turn you into Caravaggio

  • Most people just skipped around the topic and assumed that I get on my knees and pray to RAW every night.

    Actually I assumed that after looking at your website ;-)

    Raw(not an acronym) doesn't give you better lighting, just more dynamic range.

    A bad shot, properly exposed with poor lighting is still a bad shot with poor lighting.

  • None of this matters, technology will continue to push forward and RAW will probably be irrelevant in 10 years anyways.

    @radikalfilm what do you mean by "not wanting post"? I have no desire to learn anything about a Cinealta RAW workflow, a BMCC or a MK3 can give me all the "raw" I need.

    @jpbturbo RAW has more benefits than just "more dynamic range"

  • Raw(not an acronym) doesn't give you better lighting, just more dynamic range.

    Btw, it could be that you will be able to sculpt light via software. Adding 3D depth map and appropriate hardware can allow to make some light adjustments in post.

  • @GMG

    Why would RAW be irrelevant? Unprocessed sensor data will always be desirable for certain purposes.

  • @cde

    technology may dramatically change, it's increasing at a faster rate everyday. In 10 years we may shoot video with our eyeballs.

  • In 10 years we may shoot video with our eyeballs

    I want shot raw video from my balls... :P

    wishfully (though rather hopeless) we'll experience a quality/depth increase in content... which IMHO can only be attained by improvement, perhaps complete change, in the way of "recording", manipulating and sharing it.

    I had to come with a empty smartass phrase to equilibrate the donkeyass fart

  • haha, here we go again...

  • The future I can imagine will be, is that we will not need to capture moments, conscience will have the means to go forward and reverse in time and space of our memories, and we will have the ability to share those via some kind of mental connection, so as sad as that make some people in this topic there will NOT be raw, I Repeat NO raw ;-)