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RAW makes obsolete all your skill
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  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @gravitatemediagroup:

    this is a line by sebastiao salagado, one of the most famous and best photographers of the past 40 years: for a photographer good shoes are more important than a good camera!

    I really like this quote. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/09/magazine/an-interview-with-sebastiao-salgado.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @mirrorkisser

    I don't care what he says. A GREAT photographer can shoot barefoot, in the rain, cigarette in mouth, and a pet monkey on his shoulder.

    This conversation will have no end.

    Either understand what I'm saying or don't say anything at all.

    Your quote is off topic.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Your quote is off topic.

    Last time I checked you are not moderator :-)

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    I'm just saying.

    I'm not sure what points are still trying to be made? This whole topic is really a matter of opinion.

    Mediocre photographers are convincing people that they are professional with the help of technology.

    It is something you either agree with or disagree with. It is a VERY simple thing to understand.

    and like you said

    Right now it is pointless to countinue discussion.

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    @GravitateMediaGroup - I think you would be better served by saying "Mediocre photographers are convincing people with little knowledge that they are professional with the help of technology." A fool and his money are soon parted, or however that goes...

    As to why RAW for video? I have a BMCC on order. I came from the commercial world of shooting mostly 35mm, I like the look of the RAW out of the BMCC. I like that I can change a scene to a certain look if the budget does not include enough $ for a grip truck full of Deep Straw. In other words, I mostly agree with @bannedindv . I look to RAW to help make lighting decisions a little easier on set. I have never held to the prayer that image can be fixed in post. Sometimes, it cannot and you are screwed. I've worked enough to have seen it. I'm willing to bet that you aren't just pointing and shooting your BMCC and getting Vittorio Storaro images, now are you? I looked at your pictures. Some are nice, some are ok. I wouldn't guess that you're a high $ photog from them. You have claimed to have been shooting video for the better part of your 26/27 years now. (Can't remember that thread, whatever) I would hope that you could frame a shot at this point. There, you already have a leg up on someone that got a D700 a year ago. When I am looking at good photography, I expect for some emotion to be elicited as I view. To me, pretty pictures are just pretty pictures. Yeah, some people just like pretty pictures with colors and such, but I have never been one for that. Firing away with little knowledge of what makes a good photo, you can sometimes find a nugget and clean it up, but they are rare...

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @GravitateMediaGroup

    LOL. yep, but my words you cited have something before them.

  • stoneystoney

    @GravitateMediaGroup

    Well the thread's subject title says it all, "RAW makes obsolete all your skill."

    Each time I see the title, it gives me goose bump. I don't really care about "professional" this "professional" that or RAW or not. Yes it's just your opinion... but your closed mind is giving me the creeps. Good people are really trying to help you open your mind.

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    "like them, hate them, I still stand by what I say of photography is a joke"

    Yeah, this still gets me.

  • spacewigspacewig

    Good people are really trying to help you open your mind.

    The best post in this thread was made by burnetrhoades on page 2, the one with the smashing family portraits. It succinctly encapsulates the sentiment most people who disagree with GMG are trying to express in the form of a hidden question. MGM's reply to that post makes abundantly clear the futility of this effort since the core issue exists not within the bounds of rational faculties but somewhere much more complex: Taste.

  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @gravitatemediagroup: my quote or post was not off topic. You have to think in bigger patterns: On a more abstract level you said that technical novelties like raw would make the skill package a thing of the past. While my post contradicts (while at the same time enriches the discussion by a cordial quote) yours by stating that the technical aspect (good camera) does just play a secondary role. Just like in dialectics and philosophical disussion, just replace terms with parameters and see if the equation is right.

    Good night and good luck!

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @stonebat Get all the goosebumps you want, those are not my words.

    @rockroadpix In most ways, it is. You know, the idea of amateurs charging $3k for 3 hours worth of work because RAW opened the door for them. And yeah, the fine folks of P-V won't be fooled by an amateur. But a woman getting married in desperate need of a photographer would be....duh a

    RAW for photos and video will of course make life easier for everyone. You all are waiting to sink your teeth into the BMCC for the EXACT reasons amateur photographers have taken advantage. Less required skill, quicker prep, less concern with WB. Although, if you think you are going to shoot in low light with the BMCC and boost the exposure in post, better think twice about trying to cheat that.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    Reminder to all for the 2nd or 3rd time: the title of the topic is in no way, shape, or form a direct quote of anything I said. So...find something else to "assume."

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    @GravitateMediaGroup -Your presumption that I am waiting for the BMCC so I have to utilize less skill is in a word, false. Working with film is NOT easier than ENG video. It seems that you think this to be the case. Video is more limiting. That is why many are wanting the BMCC or RAW in our gear.

  • bwhitzbwhitz

    I don't care what he says. A GREAT photographer can shoot barefoot, in the rain, cigarette in mouth, and a pet monkey on his shoulder.

    Haven't read the entire thread, but I agree with this. Technology is only an amplifier... it is not a crutch. Simply knowing "the process" and "gear" that pros use will not make you a pro. It may make mediocre artists "appear" to be creating professional work in some situations, but it's no replacement for artistry and talent in the long run.

    I also see this in indie film shoots far too often. So many low-budget shoots I hang around on spend WAY too much effort trying to emulate the "professional film shoot" process, thinking that it will somehow create a more professional project in the end. It doesn't. Most indie films are terrible because most all people are mediocre or worse (just by odds and probability)... it's not "the process" or "budget" that makes a film good. These things only allow a "bigger" story to be told. They do not replace the craft or talent.

  • dancerchrisdancerchris

    @bwhitz:

    Nicely said. The claim "professional" simply means somebody who gets paid for that type of task. Most of us think of "photographer" as an artist. Some are good and some not so good it is a matter of taste. Some even get paid for it and do it for a living. Are some amatuers better than some pros? Yes. Can I or anyone else on this forum come close to Adam's work with all of our current tech (with RAW)? Seriously doubt it. This is a common flame that happens on any forum that relates to an art/tech mix. Try looking at an forum on electric guitars. Lots of talk about tech, setup, tone but the truth is give two guys the same setup and Eddie V. is going to sound better than I do. :)

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @rockroadpix

    Yeah, obviously working with film is difficult. The next question is, are you referring to RAW as film in this context?

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @dancechris

    I agree, but if you relate it to the whole conversation. With modern technology you can make music with computers now. So if one was not a great guitar player, they could create music with a computer. ; )

    @bwhitz

    I completely agree. I guess the main point is, is that there are "photographers" in the world appearing as "pro photographers" to the AVERAGE consumer. So, this is where the "anybody can be a photographer" stems from. Of course they will need to know how to operate the shutter/aperture and possibly need an understanding of proper lighting, But a couple YouTube tutorials can teach you the basics. I don't think anyone thinking of an armed robbery is going to attempt it without knowing how to operate a gun ; )

  • stipstip

    let's just all agree with him, then this ridiculous thread will come to an end, it's annoying to see it near the top threads all the time...

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @stip There is nothing to agree or disagree with. I guess you can look at it as an opinion.

    Nobody is forcing you to post on this topic. When I see a topic that is of no interest to me, I don't post on it.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @stip @GravitateMediaGroup

    Wiht all personal things - to PM.

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    I'm referring to the RAW image from the BMCC , Alexa, S-Log, RED being more film like, in that it has near or better the dynamic range of film. That image can be altered to suit many styles of looks much more easily than a baked-in image.

    You're inferring that RAW will mean anyone can make beautiful pictures. Not really true. I see instagram crap everyday on Fb that should never have been posted, it's just that some chick thought of their shot of a bunch of sunflowers with a hip filter is artsy. Making music on a computer can be easy, making good music? Not so easy. People that have no idea of what a chord progression is or backing percussion make crappy "music" all the time.

  • Raysito22Raysito22

    This topic is kind of an approach from photography to sociology, so opinions are going to be everything we have here. I don't think there's truth in any, just personal views. Name of the website, thus, @stip, I don't get your comment. It's not ridiculous, though I'd say the topic name is SUCH an statement, it just leaves some of us to think it's a stupid topic. But the real topic discussed has nothing to do with the topic name.

    It is a strange topic if you come here for the normal stuff...but hei, I've already learnt more from users in this post, than in the "introduce yourself" one :) .

    Has anybody thought that cultural differences can make us see things one way or another, I'm gonna find ya, I'm gonna get ya...shit, I just got lost.

    It's not the same level in USA (real industry, though I know USA means lots of cultural/economical differences...I can only tell for the little I've been shown) than Spain. Here in Spain, you can see (a lot of) people say "why the hell would I hire a photographer, if my son has a DSLR camera?" That makes this topic valid. And that fucks up the proffession, final quality, etc. It also tells us, a lot of people prefer to keep money than having a good final product, "hey take a picture of the ring" and that's it. Also, they don't give a shit about art, if you have a D4 or a D40, etc. "It's big, it's good", that's it if you're actually hiring someone.

    Our culture in anything that has to do with art, is so low, it makes GMG statement "RAW can kill photographers" a freaking truth. So true, I'm soon moving far far away. It's not like it's gonna be better for me...I just want to see others stuff, and get less anoyed when people say "this picture is so good, he's such a photographer!" and knowing the photographer as to say:

    • He shot JPEG.
    • He knows nothing about aperture or diaphragm.
    • He knows shit about electronics.
    • He's a Photoshop semi-pro.

    BTW, that proffessional photographer I'm talking about, now shoots RAW 'cause he was told to do so. He cannot print anything larger than A4, otherwise a lot of banding and noise would show up. Yet, he's doing money, while other good photographers don't. Not just a case, but the usual stuff you see here (before getting to VERY PRO level, that stuff "normal people" don't even get to see or understand). That kind of people move a lot of money, more than lots of good proffessionals. There's real lack of criticism and knowledge here, due mostly because education here is...just come to Spain, you'll get it. BTW, as I said, he shot JPEG, RAW isn't such a gamechanger, Photoshop and CREATIVITY too, might be. RAW gives even more possibilites to fuck it up and make it good.

    His photographs were actually inspired a 100% by Jose Maria Mellado. But people know shit about photography, so they were good photographs to people who knew nothing. Some proffessionals thought he was great too. But that's because proffessionals here LOVE Mellado's pictures. It's sad-HDR-no-soul-pictures to me. At least Mellado makes 3x2m prints...he knows how to take a picture.

    I find this topic just way too messy to discuss about it (there's a lot to take into account, my English come's in very short to actually say what I'd like to say), that's the reason I quit. But saying it's ridicolous...nah, I'd say I've learned a lot with it.

    This is possitive me.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @rockroadpix But if a chick wants to post a picture she likes, that is her right to do so. Who are you to question her because of something she likes? Did she charge you money for the picture she took?

    @raysito22 amen, and I really agree that this topic would have different outlooks depending on what part of the world you live in.

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    I'm referring moreso, to the comments from all the friends piping in, "You should be a photog, that is beauts!!" Ugh. It's over done and so is this thread.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    But if a chick wants to post a picture she likes, that is her right to do so. Who are you to question her because of something she likes?

    And if she abuses this right by constantly posting crap?

    Did she charge you money for the picture she took?

    In fact, yes. She took your time. As she increased pile of shit and made it harder to find good stuff under it.

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