Personal View site logo
Make sure to join PV on Telegram or Facebook! Perfect to keep up with community on your smartphone.
Please, support PV!
It allows to keep PV going, with more focus towards AI, but keeping be one of the few truly independent places.
Red Epic and Scarlet pricing reduction
  • 115 Replies sorted by
  • danyyyeldanyyyel

    @jpbturbo, so you want to see every pore of your preferred actress.

  • jpbturbojpbturbo

    I've been tested to have somewhere between 20/10 and 20/8 vision.

    I'm looking forward to an increased amount of detail in recorded images.

  • brianlucebrianluce

    the sharpness in resolution is starting to become distracting in movies.

    I agree.

  • sam_sticklandsam_stickland

    @rigs Here in the UK most HD broadcasts are compressed too much to boot!

  • bimdasbimdas

    4k has it's place in production but it's getting on ridiculous to be getting 4k in the home. Unless I'm sitting a couple of feet away from my screen, there's very little difference between 720p and 1080p from my couch on my modest 42inch tv. We'd need a wall size screen to make use of 4k in the home. Even now with 1080p, I can see the heavy makeup used in every movie and every wrinkle. When will enough resolution be enough? When we start to see every pore on their skin? The resolution race is getting ridiculous and the sharpness in resolution is starting to become distracting in movies.

  • rigsrigs

    Most Broadcasters are not even up to 1080p. Distribution is 1080i at best here in Canada. 4k will not be accepted by the masses anytime soon, unless the manufacturers come in at low price levels and it doesn't come in at a higher premium to subscribe. One only has to think of how many people ponied up to put 3d TV in their homes.

  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    4k at home can't come soon enough, but I think it's going to take a long while for the average consumer to buy into it.

  • NickBenNickBen

    Looks like RED has a major announcement on November 30th for home 4K distribution coming soon with an industry partner.

    Those 4K players look pretty sweet, but a little large (I know, home theater fanatics like to show off their gear)... now if we only had something to watch them on under $5K... have to wait for CES 2013 in January for those...

    http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1352045981.jpg

    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88303-4K-Delivery-get-ready

    Jarred Land Today, 01:24 AM

    I know we have been harping about 4K distribution forever... but it is about to get very real.

    Now is a good time to figure out ( if you haven't already ) how to prepare, conform and finish everything important that you have shot in 4K. There are going to be alot of people very happy that they chose a camera that was ready for this whole new world of distribution.

    The Consumer Electronics Association has finally laid down the UHD 4K rules for Displays... and they don't take kindly to anything below 3840 x 2160.. In fact.. they don't allow it.

    4K Displays are here. and their prices are dropping every month. Soon they will be in reach of the masses.

    And then there is REDRAY... the crown jewel of 4K content delivery.

    Next month we start shipping 4k REDRAY players to alot of new eyeballs.. consumers and professionals alike.. and they are going to want the same thing... 4K content.

    For REDRAY we have partnered with one of the most innovative content distribution companies that both content owners and viewers have ever seen...and we built it right into REDray.

    Expect the official REDRAY and 4k Content Distribution network announcement along with pre-orders to happen in a couple weeks.. but I thought it was important to give you all a heads up so you can prepare.

    Our Production Lines are churning.. manufacturing is ramping up.

    We are ready.... are you?

  • stipstip

    You could get a RED in Berlin for € 99 for a while now…

    you mean dvkameraverleih.de? Good luck trying to rent it, it's rented out all the time, need to book it weeks, better month ahead.

  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    Good deal, in NYC I could get some great deals as well. Unfortunately I'm down in Houston now and the rental market here is so much smaller.

  • nomadnomad

    You could get a RED in Berlin for € 99 for a while now…

  • robmneilsonrobmneilson

    Most importantly, what is going to happen to the Epic rental prices after this drop? In the city I live in it you can usually get an Epic for $1,000-$1,200 bucks/day. I would love if it made rentals a bit more affordable now.

  • NickBenNickBen

    Just posted today on Reduser.net:

    Jannard

    As soon as Dragon and our "new technology" has been released, I won't be just taking a little time off. I will have done my job.

    Jim

    I think I called this prediction a couple days ago- New RED upcoming tech needs to be funded by blowout prices on existing Red inventory and production lines and will aid production of Dragon ASIC which would be part of the newer camera systems (likely 8K+) ...

    even IF it doesn't come through, looks like he's "retiring" early, transerring the reigns to Jarred

    at least, that's what he's saying on a late Saturday night...

  • rockroadpixrockroadpix

    @danyyyel - EXACTLY! That is why one company excels over the other in look. ARRI has been doing it very well for a very long time. They get it. RED (although I like the business model) is run by someone that is too wrapped up in the numbers, IMO.

    With these price drops, when will an 18" cable be less than f***ing $200!!! That is what seems like the whole ponzi scheme of the company. It's ridiculous. If I had a dollar for every AC that was trying to find a misplaced cable, I'd own a full Alexa package.

  • danyyyeldanyyyel

    @vicx , yes that is the only advantage that he had over the Alexa, which has clearly beaten him in the high-end camera market. What the Alexa tells us, is that there is much more than resolution and spec sheet for the quality of a camera. While he was boasting about resolution resolution etc. Arri concentrated on DR and color science and ergonomic and it had payed dividend and he is sour about that and boasting on the only advantage that he had.

    The 4k thing is truly overdone, most if not all the Hollywood movies that were done on red where re-sized to 2k because of cost for CGI etc. Many indy are going to invest and film/master in 4k, while some lighting budget and gear would have made there production much better.

  • RRRRRRRR

    I see what you mean. And yes, redraw is indeed a great innovation!

  • nomadnomad

    I agree 100% with you, "imperfection" with a lens can be beautiful. I love my old lenses. Leica for example has an attitude towards resolution not being all there is. A Master Prime may (mildly) outresolve a Summicron, but some DoPs love them very much nevertheless.

    But the OP asked about 4K, and I tried to answer to that single parameter only.

    BTW, in my eyes the most impressive innovation by RED was compressed RAW at that level of quality, that's their secret sauce. Taking the filters off a sensor and getting very nice resolution, tonality and sensitivity is not that sensational – Leica did it before.

  • RRRRRRRR

    The only true 4k camera, as far as I know, is sony f65. (which has a completely even sample of all channels)

    You'd need all new glass for them…

    @Nomad

    Now this is if you believe that people will actually want maximum resolution. Thing is, people would complain that the footage looks like video. Whereas lens imperfections migh introduce a desired look. This thing is certainly not linear in what is "good" and what is "bad".

  • SangyeSangye

    I don't like a lot of things about RED, but you need to give credit where credit is due. For a startup that came out of nowhere, they've made a huge impact on the industry. I also disagree that they are not innovating. Look at the recently announced monochrome EPIC-M sensor with 2000 native ISO. That's huge. Look at the modularity of their cameras. That's pretty damn innovative, and other manufacturers are finally following suit.

    RED is run by egomaniacs and their cameras so far aren't up to the same par as say the Alexa, but don't suggest that they aren't innovating. They're leading in a lot of ways right now, and Sony is following.

  • nomadnomad

    @vicx Is RED 4K or not?

    Well, yes and no. The Epic is close to true 4K resolution, since it can shoot 5K@24p, the Scarlet or R1-MX is not. You need an overhead to decode the needed resolution from a Bayer pattern. Graeme Nattress did a great job with his decoding, about 80% for luma, and you can measure close to 4K on the Epic – if you have very good and expensive glass on it!

    The sensor outresolves all middle-class cine lenses like rehoused Zeiss or Leica-R and even some older cine lenses. You'll need master Primes or cine Summicrons to see it's limits. Imagine cameras with true 8K! You'd need all new glass for them…

    Sony's mumbo-jumbo about the tilted sensor in their cameras and "8K" aside, it resolves a tad more but at the cost of some aliasing. I've never seen any aliasing for luma with RED.

    Can't say anything about the new cameras, of course.

    Their concept of "obsolescence obsolete" is pure marketing, as Vitaliy and Danyyyel explained very well.

  • NickBenNickBen

    I think as Vitaliy indicates, RED is likely at a tiping point and needs to scoop up all the marbles while thy can right now to position for future viability. If you think of it, they really only have 2 cameras in 6 years (Red One and Epic (Scarlet is really it's subcategory).

    estimate 3 major motivations to explain the price drop:

    1. Idle camera body machine presses, and RED makes more money on Media and Accessories

    2. RED is going to release a new 8K+ Camera system in 2013 to compete at the high-end that uses their new 512GB Turbo SSD and new ASIC and needs a 6 month spurt of funding to clear out old inventory and accessories and get the Dragon sensor upgrades out the door ASAP. I bet the new ASIC they said are now required for the EPIC Dragon sensor upgrade are really the ones for the new camera system, so they'll be used in both to save on cost cost. Just good product planning there...

    3. More products out there require more servicing, just like a USED BMW dealer can make more than a new dealer, and SERVICE makes the most money...

    All just speculation, but reasonable either way...

    One of the BIGGEST potential benefits of this announcement means local super-cheap 4K RAW rental rates!

    I assume the EPIC and Sony F55 and Alexa rental rates will stay at a premium, but the Red One MX and Scarlet-X is priced so low there's no reason any major video or photo rental shop would not have at least one 4K+ RAW kit available for cheap!

  • RatLabProductionsRatLabProductions

    If you are doing quick turnaround TV work being able to record a 50mb/s 422 codec is amazing and the reason the C300 became the go to camera for TV production on the low end and Alexa on the high end. TV does not want to deal with the cost and resources required for 4K. To achieve that quick workflow on the Epic or Scarlett you need to spend another $13K for a module.

    The F5 with XD50 codec will cut into the C300 market a lot but the C300 has had a great headstart.

    Much of the industry has very little need or want for the added expenses of 4K Raw. Give me a good compressed codec any day of the week.

    Different strokes for different folks.

  • vicxvicx

    At the moment RED and SONY are on the same team. They both want to sell lots of 4K gear at premium prices.

    @danyyyel The RED boss was recently criticising Arri and other cameras producing 2K images and saying that his cameras are true 4K. Are they true 4k?

    2K raw is where companies like Blackmagic have a chance to compete because as VK mentioned: the essential ingredients of RAW video are solved very affordably with SSD and thunderbolt technology.

  • danyyyeldanyyyel

    Between the overly positive and negative comment, I think there is more a middle ground. Things like red has a 444 sensor is not correct, you cannot get 444 from a bayer sensor at 1.1 pixel. The second thing about obsolescence obsolete!!!!!!! So what will happen when you buy this $ 4000 body redone, will you have other sensors etc.... no. Those that are buying at the new epic price won't have Dragon update. They will have to pay for it. And what difference does it make, you can sell your old camera and add the money for a new one.

    Let say you are a Sony F3 user and you want to buy an F5 for $ 15 000. You sell your camera for 9/10 k and add the remaining money. In fact you are not just upgrading but get a completely new camera.

    Now red has there part in the democratization of high-end s35 camera. To deny that is really biased. While the dslr was more of the low and mid, the high-end was more because of red. They did bring some very nice technology at very competitive prices. The religion and adoration of the red boss that comes with it that is disturbing.

    The latest reduction is really nice even if is more about competition than some generous act by Jannard. It could also be a move into the mid and lower end of the market. A market that they had abandon but perhaps that as they have loss to Alexa in the high-end it was better to reposition themselves. In the end this move is good for all of us customers because it will force others to compete. For example the Canon C300 pricing looks ridiculous compared to a scarlet if you do a feature. Now lets see what Sony will do.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @sicovdplas

    It is not really a point, as they replace whole sensor and all main boards using hugely complicated and long process.

    Is it good idea? No, of course not, as sensor and specific board must be located in small module that do not require you to send it back and forth (that they can't do now due to technical constraints).

    As for Sony sensor, idea with "outdated" it just bullshit. People become so accustomed with pointless shit talk, so they completely forget physics laws, tech used and all other real things.

Add a Comment