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The Swiss Knife Camera
  • Hi everyone,

    This post might come a bit as a surprise but I can assure that this a serious matter. You also don't know me but I'm happy to answer any questions

    I would ask people to refrain themselves from being over negative or talking for the sake of it.

    In my life, I have seen the evolution of cameras from Super 8 BOLEX to today's one. Did I shoot anything worth talking about, short answer is no. what I love is film and technology. Dare I say good and sexy technology!!! I wish I could make my own film but let's face it I'm probably no Spielberg, on the other hand I love design and technology and have been successful at it.

    I have been reading forums since they actually exist and I was also very involved in the 35mm adapters and made my own. So my quest like many of you is to have a camera that gives you, not a cinematic image but the image you need to have for the project you are working on. But let's face it, a camera is not only about the image, is it?

    Now this is the way I see things and by saying it I do not intend to offend anyone, it just feels to me like the plain truth.

    Big corporation like Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon will always give us a bit more or bit less but never the perfect tool as they need to ensure future sales. Of course we can hack some of them but is it a solution in the long run?

    High end, Arri and Red cost a fortune and it not accessible to many of us.

    Blackmagic comes around and produce a sexy little beast but it's a box with some fancy features and in my opinion it's lacking of some features that makes it not so cool to use. this is not THE CAMERA in my eyes.

    So where does it leave us? I know that some beautiful film can be shot with DSLRs and other cameras but how cool would it be to have the Swiss knife camera?

    So can we pull it off? Well I can't answer that. Can we try… Well we have to, don't we?

    So here is my "Crazy" idea…

    I would like to find the people to be able to build such a camera. Sensor Guru… Electronic Guru… Software Guru… Optic Guru… Sound/electronic Guru… Storage Guru…

    I'll keep the design part for myself and another person already on it. But Ideas are always welcome.

    If you believe that you are one those guys please send me a personal message. If you are but want to know more, then just ask your question on that thread so everybody can see my answer.

    So that we are clear. This is not a job offer as such. There will be no salary. So you will ask, what's in it for me?

    Well, that's simple, it's fully funded by myself, and for those of you elected to be part of the project, you will each get a substantial stake in the company. Remember this is not for everyone as you will need to put some time on top of your day job so you need to be very passionate about it.

    I am based in UK on the M4 corridor between London and Bristol. I would like the candidate to be in this area so it would be easier for meetings but then again if you have what it takes and live outside of the UK, we can always Skype each…

    The goal is pure and simple. a camera so modular that everyone should find happiness in it. The software will be open source so everyone can have go and add plugins to it.

    Price target, as cheap as possible but of course those people that will put the work in will want to make money out their shares so we will see about that when the time comes.

    Features?

    Well do I really need to repeat what as been said by you guys a million time?

    Short non exhaustive list:

    Global shutter - Sensor size? dunno yet! Plenty of DR for sure. internal ND filters Interchangeable lens mounts No moire, No Aliasing 24, 25, 30, 60, 120, 240 Frames per second. The higher rates might just be burst but that will do. Standard removable batteries Balanced sound, 48v, proper mechanical knobs for sound adjustment and dedicated panel. SDI - HDMI outputs. SSD storage

    Design - Super ergonomic, remember this is a tools for people to work.

    Do i need to go on????

    Anyway guys.. Please be constructive.

    Thank you

  • 34 Replies sorted by
  • Yes, Internet Stranger, I would love to join your team and work for nothing but the promise of a possible stake in something down the road. Being, like all others here, a complete amateur in the field of camera design and manufacture, I feel that not only do I have a lot to offer the team, but given the high level of discourse and general harmony here, there's no doubt the final design will be a masterpiece of performance, operational elegance, and technical brilliance. Thank you for the opportunity, and I guess my only question is, do we get to pick our own guru type? Because if so, I want to be Optic Guru. Or Storage Guru. Or, and I know this wasn't on the list, but maybe think about Catering Guru? Gurus got to eat too, you know.

  • @Shaveblog, did I miss the sandwich holder feature on the camera? damn :)

    Thank you for responding and to answer your question, yes you get to choose your guru type. I believe that if we want to get something out constructively and creatively we may need more than one guru per section. I intend to run this thread for around 2 weeks and then we can all decide if we have the necessary resources to achieve our goals.

  • Gurus tend to be egomaniacs and don't work well together. So you need a Taskmaster Guru to whip them into line. All the Gurus are useless without an Organizational Guru. His or her first task is to put up a website to communicate your plan. Even scammers know how to do this. Sorry I can't help, my Skeptical Guru wrote the above, not me. Well, I'm off to build my Humvee with macaroni and rubber bands. Good luck! But hurry, Spielberg and Lucas just said the movie industry will soon implode, so there is no need for cameras anymore.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/steven-spielberg--george-lucas-warn-of-movie-industry-implosion-its-the-end-of-hollywood-as-we-know-it-8658179.html

  • @Jleo Thanks for responding, that was fairly constructive, and I was expecting it. People interested in the project will not have to worry about organisation. I will take charge of it. When the time comes and the a possible team is in place hopefully in the next 2 weeks, I will give them my resume, then they can decide if they are still in. And by the way the article says "the end as we know it" not "the end".

  • Cool u try to hire ppl for free and then when the product is done u get the money and the other nothing! why dont u go on other forums u mor.......thx in advance

  • See, what you need to do also is to find a recent film school graduate to consult with you on the design of the camera. Then you can make a POC video with your "prototype" camera (which is really a camera from another company). Ideally, you could license the camera's name from a respected maker of 8mm and 16mm film cameras who has fallen by the wayside. Maybe Digital Keystone, Digital Bell and Howell, or Digital Beaulieu would be options.
    Now you'll be ready for kickstarter. You can promise people your awesome new camera for around $2500. You'll raise a few million in funding. Then you and your team of "gurus" can fail to deliver a working camera for more than a year while you keep posting updates promising that you're really close to working out all of your sensor problems while you haven't ever actually managed to get even a single usable image out of it. Meanwhile, maybe your optics guru can also invent some crappy lenses and you can brag about using coating technology 40 years out of date on them.

    Oh, hey, and don't forget the handcrank on the side.

  • @eatstoomuchjam

    LOL.

    You also forgot very important requirement. You must be a hippie to do it.

  • @anthonybert

    Sounds so complicated. Do you have engineering skills?

  • @chef, Well it seems that people have lost faith. Where do you see see that people work for nothing? so to inform everyone, Company will be setup from day one. in the next month or so if we have found the right people Recruited participant will have 3 things: 1/ shares: 50% of the company divided by the amount of people recruited. so if 5 people are recruited then you get 10% each on day one.

    2/ Cash lump sum(depending on your possible hour input) Ready for you on project delivery

    Now since no one is taking any income including myself, all money received would distributed on a bi - annual dividend basis if profit exist of course.

    The other 50% which I would keep ownership at the beginning will then become split in between financial investors which are not needed since I can finance the project, but we never know we may need to bring more capital on board if we have a opportunity to get big.

    And also don't forget that I actually put all the cash on the table os each participant will able to acquire anything that is needed for the success of the project.

    So I think what I'm offering is a little bit better than a kick starter project. isn't it? Here I'm not pretending that I know how to build a camera. I was just helping all of you expert to build one.

    Btw, I don't think you need to call me a moron? is it really appropriate.

    @eatstoomuchjam, @Vitaliy_Kiselev very funny and also very important to bring the subject. well timing is always a consideration, but I was thinking of having a very open project, shared on this very forum that would give daily/weekly updates.

    I know that other project /company have not been shining on the subject, but that's only because they have not worked with the public. They left us in the dark. Here everything would be transparent.

    Reading the comments, I do not believe that there is a massive interest, If the creator of this forum can only backup a proper investment by making a one line joke then it shows a very pessimistic future.

    It seems like time have been wasted.

  • @MikeLinn yes it's complicated. I have access to 2 brilliant engineers. My skills are design and management.

  • @anthonybert

    This comments was not about you, if you know last year history :-)

    Otherwise, show us prototype, design, boards, etc. Some serious things.

  • Also, to all non-believers, please have a read on EosHD:

    http://www.eoshd.com/content/10517/an-incredible-achievement-roald-christessen-builds-his-own-raw-cinema-camera-and-grading-software

    Nothing is impossible and that's my personal view.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev, Yes I'm well aware of the Epic story regarding the Bolex.

    Did you read my post at the top. Is it for me to show you the designs? I'm actually financing the people from this forum to get what they want. so It's for those who will be participating to show us what they are made of. I am not one of this people pretending to be someone I'm not. this is a project from the ground up.

    Everyone have been giving their opinions for years about what should be a great camera. Everyone have been boasting about their competencies. Well now the money is on the table, I hope that the serious people of this forum will shine. and Vitaly you are welcome to join.

    The only thing I can tell you is that design wise, I would like the final product to be very close (external design wise) to the Canon XL2. IT was a lovely ergonomic camera to use and things just felt in the right place.

  • I'm actually financing the people from this forum to get what they want.

    What you mean under "I'm actually financing" ?

    Do you really understand how it looks from the side?

    Do you understand what you are not first, second or even third who came to forums to make camera from "ground up" without any skill or expirience?

    May be I am being harsh, but show why people can have even tiny amout of trust.

  • I do understand how it looks on the side and I'm not asking you to have faith and jump you eyes close.

    I'm actually asking people to be a bit more open minded and take the opportunity to listen to someone who admits that he is not an expert in sensor, or electronic but realise that there is an opportunity to create something great with great people.

    When I say I'm financing the project, bizarrely it means that I'm financing the project.

    Here it's the same. I will buy all necessary components for research and will finance the production of the camera until it is a final product that can hit the market. Each participant will have no personal expense except their time. But sensors, software optics everything else need will be purchased by myself and delivered to the person in charge of his department.

    I did no say that I had no skills at all, I just don't think that I am an expert in some fields and therefore there is no need for me to talk for nothing. Now Yes I have a lot of skills, and as I previously said, if enough competent people are interested for each section needed to produce that camera, they will have the full resume of my personal achievements and skills. Then they can make their mind up wether they think I can drive the team to produce this camera or not.. This is as simple as that. I have worked in the UK for the past 13 years with some serious engineers and I never encountered such pessimism. And I thought I was the pessimistic one :)

  • @anthonybert

    Can you just make real business proposal post even draft one, if you are so serious as you say.

    How you expect to find professional engineers, how much time they must spend working on it, your financing amount and plan, all the details.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev you are absolutely right. The business plan and model will be delivered to the final elected team. I'm just trying to get things organised. So here is the initial agenda.

    1 - Is there enough talented people here to form a team

    2 - Select the team out of those people. At then the business model and plan will be disclosed to those selected.

    3 - After everyone agrees on the terms we will publicly disclose our plans on this forum. with at minimum weekly update from all department.

    I do not believe that the business plan has to be disclosed now as the only question is:

    Are you interested and what are your skills?

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    I've known Anthony Bert for 15 years and have been a co-director with him on some rather successful companies, so I can confidently say that he could finance such a project easily, whether he should is another matter.

    Anthony has been making films for his own satisfaction for 25+ years.

    He has access to the right type of mechanical engineering for casings, lens mounts etc. He also has access to a number of electronics engineers, however I would say that none of these has experience of the very very high data rates that would be found in such a camera. They are rather experienced in embedded systems and control schemes, some of which translate to this project.

    I had a long look at some of the application notes for sensors last night and came to the conclusion that the project is possible on a breadboarded basis, using the prototype kits available from the sensor manufacturers. In this way one would get a camera going with some type of output.

    Personally, I estimate that the work needed to go from bench to camera is too much for an 'open hardware' 'open source' team of loosely connected people.

    My caveat is that if Anthony could find the right engineer to bridge the gap (high parallel data rates) he could have a chance. Trouble is at this data rate products are damn hard to get through CE approval (I know, I've been there!!)

    My counsel is that this would be a bloody big undertaking! PV might uncover the right person, but equally re-engineering a BMCC as open-source might achieve the same goal: The 'Ubuntu' Camera.

    @anthonybert Actually matey --- these guys are being skeptical not pessimistic, which is OK, remember they don't know you!

  • Andy, Thanks for your input, and I agree that protoboarding will be a good start. My intention is not to do it on an open forum, but more on a selected forum :) and feed back progress in the open forum.

    I like your idea about the BMCC, Just not sure I like the dependence on Blackmagic. and of course this project can never give us access to market which is not so good for people putting their time in. I want to have fun, not sit with lawyers for years on end for patent/design infringement. Although Rental could be achievable, those guys in the state who created a mod version of the go pro are going for rental. But Rental is another beast especially when it come to electronic goods.

    The BMCC produce a great image as we all know, and they also have a great tech, Using yours andy I feel that the form factor, usability and software could have a greater scope for not much more money. Now a BMCC in an XL2 body and software, I'd buy it tomorrow.

    In the I know this is a difficult task. If it comes to nothing I can always fee l that I have try to reach out :)

    Life has been good to me and I just want to re-energise the word "Enterprise". I just think we need more of it at the moment.

  • @anthonybert I like and respect what you are doing and offering here! I am sorry I have nothing to offer execpt my comment and thoughts on the subject.

    I just wondered how usable would a modular camera be in the end?

    Now dont get me wrong, I like the idea, but what part if anything of a digital camera is able to hold its ground for longer than few years these days? Maybe the casing, mechanical buttons, lens mounts, perhaps viewfinder... but most if not all of the electronics are going to suffer from old age sooner or later. And if they are built to take the challenges of the future (make them extremely top notch / high speed) they will inavoidably become really expensive. Ofcourse one could argue that if a camera "good enough" could be built today for decent cost, it would not need to be updated and thus had no need to be modular. A bit of an paradox.

    Anyway I really hope this gets going and you find the rigth gurus. And in the end evolving into a camera that is truly good enough in as many aspects as possible while maintaining reasonable pricetag <5KEUR

  • @Jasketti All fair comments... In this world things seems to be obsolete as soon as they are on the shelf.

    But is it really obsolete? or is it the people that have so much choice that they are attracted to regular change hence making new products' life ephemeral?

    Anyway I take on board what you said and can assure you that the goal is definitely to stay as cheap as possible otherwise there is no point. I do like the BMCC price point I just feel that more can be done for the same price.

  • @anthonybert

    I am serious, show the business plan and preliminary design. With market size analysis and all the things.

  • @anthonybert I was mostly joking by comparing you to Digital Bolex, but I also had a point. End-to-end design of a camera for filmmakers is really hard. If you underestimate the difficulty, you risk becoming the next DB - a company with a neat idea for a camera, but only a weak ability to execute.

    Additionally, have you considered spending time with the Apertus group? They've been working on an open source digital cinema camera for some time now and you seem to share some goals in common. At the least, following their progress may be a way to warn yourself of possible pitfalls. https://www.apertus.org/

  • @eatstoomuchjam Thanks for your input, and you are absolutely right that the risk of becoming the next DB is definitely present.

    I did look at apertus in great details. I also agree that they seem to be struggling. But then again in my current business (telecom applications) I have seen software that took a really long time to develop by competitor and that we were able to put to market in record time. Now I will agree that it may not apply in that case but still the application that I'm dealing with are pretty high end as well.

    It is possible, that in the end if I do not find get traction with engineers, I might just get in touch with Apertus and see if they could do with an external investment which my be beneficial for both parties.

    Thanks

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev May I kindly refer you to my previous answer.

    Market size analysis and all the things??? Did you get you MBA with honour? Just kidding :)

    I feel that you haven't read what I've been writing. I'm trying to focus on getting a team of passionate people to build a camera. the Camera would be the product. The product determine your market segment.

    We are not a business yet, far from it. What we could be is an R&D team that will decide on a product. If the first focus is how do we make money, then we are doing the wrong thing. (I've learnt that one from one of your users many many moons ago. I was young and he taught me the virtu of focusing on doing the best product I could rather than aspiring to financial reward)

    At the end of the day I do not want to have to fight my corner every 5 minutes.

    If you fear that I'm not equipped to lead such a venture, that is your right. I can only tell you that I have been the CTO and co-founder of my business that has now run successfully for 12 years and counting, So I feel like I do qualify in understanding how to start and progress a business. Trust me I have made my fair share of mistakes and learnt from them

    The only question is: Is there someone in this forum that have the skills and would be happy to join the team.

    If the answer is no then that's fair enough and I will close this post. I will not loose any sleep over it. That was just a genuine offer to the people of this forum that I felt would be interested. That's all.