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For direct audio input to camera, I use Sennheiser ME-66..
If using the Canon 7D I must bypass the audio in to a MP3 player to disable AGC
For separate audio recording, I use Sennheiser ME-66 with a Tascam DR-100..
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@Rambo As it only provide output adjustment it won't act as a preamp. You'll get a max output level of -30 dBu so gain at the recorder input will still be needed.
@Danyyyel I've been using FR2 (not LE) for a while and compared it to HD-P2 and SD. The analog audio of the FR2 was quite good for the price at the time it hit market, almost on par with SD of the 722 generation. I guess it's the same pre and AD that have been re-used for the LE so the audio performance should be good. The limiter however were of no use at all, sounding bad and not preventing AD clipping (I'm not even sure they were analog).
I think it's often overlooked because its size and control layout make it hard to use in an audio bag, and the market for "cheap" recorder went toward small handheld recorders with built-in mics, but yes it is a cool piece of gear.
The HD-P2 is probably the cheapest way to get 2 tracks @ 24 bits / 48 kHz with timecode but it's nowhere near a SD regarding sound and build quality or ergonomics. -
@danyyyel - I considered the HD-P2 before I bought the DR-680 but ultimately decided that I would rather have 6 tracks without timecode than 2 tracks with it. I still feel like I made the right decision, but I must say that I really do enjoy synching clips to a visual timecode slate a lot more than a clapper.
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As a little experiment today I tried hooking the Zoom H1's output to the GH2's microphone input through a cheap headphone volume control. Much to my surprise, it worked perfectly! There's virtually no difference between the sound of the H1's recording and the GH2's. This cheap headphone volume control even has two outputs, so I can connect headphones for monitoring.
$5 at Radio Shack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3268770
I set the GH2 input level to 1, the Zoom H1 output level to 30, and adjusted the volume wheel to about 1/3.
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I have a Sound Devices USB Pre 2, very good preamps but its not a really field mixer, so if you really want a solid chassis i would prefer the Pre-D
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A pair of AKG 414, and a Marantz 661 for piano performance, classical music concerts or other demanding situations. Absolutely no complaint sound quality wise.
Also have a pair of Pulsar II, and a Tascam DR-100, for field uses as both the mic and the recorder are smaller. The pre-amp of the DR-100 is a tiny bit noisy in very quiet situaions, but minor post production work can usually clean it up.
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FR2 LE is good enough for anything, AD and preamp wise, as is DR 680. Spend more, get less :) I only use my high-end pres and converters for super quiet studios, and even then, it is largely a question of wanting to run 24-32 channels. The great advantage to SD is the battery, but the Fostex will run 8 hours on an RC battery which costs $15.
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A Fostex FR2 LE here also but with a Sound Devices MixPre-D for the front end. The pre's in the FR2 LE are good but the limiters, metering and headphone amp in the MixPre-D are far better. I use the MixPre-D's mic level out into the GH2 which provides a good signal for syncing later in post. Plus the MixPre-D can also simultaneously record direct to a laptop via USB.
Mics are a Rode NTG-3, Rode Pin Mic and two Oktava MK-012's. The Oktava's sound good but are extremely sensitive to handling noise and the slightest air movement. After much trial and error I was beginning to have doubts about using the Oktava's in anything other than very controlled environments.
After scouring many forums for a solution the consensus seemed to be that a Rycote Baby ball gag and Invision shock-mount was the most effective option so that's what I finally went with and it has made a big difference.
See attached BTS photo's of a recent shoot using a MK-012 fitted with a hyper-cardioid capsule...
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@brianluce He's known as Baba Desi (The 'Wizard' of Belgrave) aka Desmond Bergen. He's an eighty three year old local identity and somewhat of a 'character'. I decided to make a short documentary about him as he generates quite a bit of interest.
He's reputed to have some kind of mystical healing powers. I can't say myself whether that is the case or not. ;>) I'll just spend some time following him around (fly-on-the-wall) and shoot him over several weeks. What the final result will be is anyone's guess.
Where's Louis Theroux when you need him? ;>)
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I use a Tascam DR-07, great quality. I also use a cheap Audio Technica Pro 70 lav mic, with an XLR to mini jack adapter when shooting my lighting tutorials, etc. It's a good mic, but the lav clip is terrible. I pretty much have to wear a hoodie to get the mic in a position where it won't make noise, unless I want to tape it to my chest every time I use it. But with a good mic in a good position, you get amazing audio on the DR-07, and it records on easy to use mp3 files. For the price I love it.
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@shian what do you think of the DR-40 Its looks looks like it will do the job- Its cheap too. I like the dual recoding mode thing...Been thinking about buying one ...
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Just picked up the Tascam DR40. My initial tests are great! Coming from a DR-07, this thing has so many more features. Also had a M-Audio 2x1/4" recorder a while back, which was nothing compared to this. Not only does the new firmware allow you to adjust levels independently, but theres also a ton of other great features, such as pre-record, various types of limiters, locking xlr!, 24/96 in wav or bwf or mp3, a-b or x-y mic setting, can be powered via 5v usb cable (good for running off CCTV batteries that some users here are using.
It's a bit larger then my other recorders. Similar to the Zoom H4 size. The menu is very easy to use and there are a lot of buttons, so nothing is ever hidden deep in a menu. Can make setting changes very quickly.
I had the 2 year Pro warranty from Guitar Center on my DR 7, and after 18 months, one of the buttons failed. Got $163 credit, the DR40 was $200 on sale with an additional $20 off coupon from their website (think it might still be going on) so paid $2o something plus another $20 or so for another 2 year warranty. Even at MSRP ($300) this would be well worth it!
Highly recommend it!
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Audio Recorder Shootout
A Comparison and review of signal to noise tests of: Zoom H4n, Tascam DT-100 MKII, Sound Devices 702, Beachtek DXA-SLR PRO, Edirol R44, Tascam DR-680, juicedLink Riggy Micro / Assist
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On location, for two channels I use a Fostex FR2LE; for 3-8 channels I use the Tascam DR680. IMHO the 680 is a no-brainer for 99 reasons. You can run the Fostex on a toy car battery which fits in the bay for more than eight hours, and it has real, not fake phantom power which believe me is a big freakin' problem with this stuff. For 8-48 channels I use RME devices, sometimes with a high end stereo pre to anchor the main pair. I tell my students if they have no gear to buy the newer zoom H2N--it has a bunch of high quality mics and you can use it on a table to interview a group with surround pickup, you can use MS, you can boom it etc. Don't consider signal to noise ratio for field work as it is irrelevant, unless you are buying junk that makes its own noise. If the device outputs 10dB of noise, and your ambient noise is 40 dB, well, that is the EOS. There's a lot of cheap junk that claims to be pro spec, which it isn't, and some cheap junk like the zooms which sound pretty good.
Specs are not sound. The Fostex sounds expensive. The Grace Lunatec sounds really expensive. Junk sounds like junk--tinny, thin and annoying. Would people buy tinny, thin and annoying because it has 1.5 dB less noise which is 100 percent inaudible? Yes they would, which is why there are lots of tinny, thin and annoying recordings.
Eight times out of ten I use the Sennheiser MKH 40s on booms or on stands, the other times I use the Schoeps MK21, 41, 2H or the Sennheiser MKH 80s. For voice overs or spot mics I will often throw in a ribbon mic. The MKH 40s are light, quiet, have high output and sound amazing, but they are expensive. IMHO he 40 is an underrated mic. Don't like the 60 as much, but it is very good. If you are a real pro, consider the MKH 30 which sounds amazing, but must be handled properly as it is a figure of eight.
The Schoeps are more expensive, and the famous supercardioid (41) is a great mic and has more reach than the Sennheiser MKH 40, but it does pick up more noise from the rear, has 6 dB lower output and is slightly less fat. If you need fat. You can however use just the capsule on the Schoeps so if the mic has to be in the video it is super tiny. No way will I sell the 41, it is one if not the only one that will produce great results in an impossible situation.
Lots of people use Oktava, they are fine, the mod improves the sound maybe 5 percent which is worth maybe 10mm of mic placement.. Haven't modded the Fostex or the 680, but people do and are happy with the improved sonics.
Why is MS important? It works like a zoom lens, you can change the field of view in post. Once again, you can change the FOV in post, even if you screw it up in the shoot. Sometimes that makes a big difference. So the new Zoom H2N has MS, XY. two channel, four channel and surround in one small can for $150. I mean, how cool is that? Is there more coolness for $150? No, that is the current limit of the coolness. SD stuff is widely used. It is built like a tank and uses off the shelf Mr Sluggo batteries from Sony. It sounds very good, not great but very good. For location work, tank like qualities rule. I worry my 680 will fall apart. You can also buy an old laptop and use an interface, then use the 680 for a backup. For expensive stuff, that's what I do, because if you don't have a full backup of everything, well, stuff can happen that means like a reshoot and holy cow you don't want to be there for that. Everyone who has done a reshoot raise your hand. If you still have it. So all this stuff that people talk about, it really is backup grade. But for a small project, it is mobile and it rocks.
Lastly I would say that most people put the mics in the wrong place and that is why it sounds tinny, thin and annoying. It really doesn't matter what gear you use unless you master the basic elements of mic placement. This means taking a stereo recorder in one hand, like the Fostex, one mic set to mono sent to both ears, a pair of closed (really closed) headphones on your head, and moving the mic around with the free hand until it sounds good.
If you want to record direct to the cam, get a cam that has uncompressed audio. It won't sound great, but it will be way better than the compressed stuff in most of the DSLRS. You can also spend hours and hour trying to get the crappy compressed audio in your cam to sound better. It won't. But if it did, you still can't push the audio in post or fix the gain issues. Some of the Olly cams have 16 bit stereo, you can use them as a backup camera and a 16 bit audio recorder. But it still isn't 24 bit goodness like the Fostex or the Tascam DR 680.
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Please insert empty line between paragraphs. I fixed it for now, but next time check it.
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I've been getting so much noise with my Zoom H4n that I'm considering going with a mixer to feed directly into my camera. I'm considering the Juicedlink RA222 or the Azden FMX-DSLR. Samys has the Azden and I can buy and try. Just wondering if anyone out there has tried one or both of these and has any recommendations? Maybe there's something else out there that I don't know about.
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@5thwall What is your signal-to-noise/dynamic range like on the Zoom vs going to direct to camera at the moment? What would you like it to be and how much do you want to spend?
The lowest signal to noise ratio for a given setup is just as influenced by the A/D converter and the microphone self-noise level as by the pre-amp itself.
The lowest possible noise floor on the GH2 is somewhere around -66 to -72 dBFS (that is with nothing plugged into the jack except an empty adapter) and that is depending on certain variables. If you microphone has a self-noise level far below that, you will not get the most out of it by going straight into the GH2 or into the GH2 via any analog pre-amp, but generally that is mainly the case for certain large capsule mics and not many small capsule mics go too far below it (some do, of course).
If you want maximum sound quality in a portable setup, look to combine a high quality digital system mic with a recorder that supports a compatible digital input (often SPDIF coaxial).
For reference, with a Neumann KM184D feeding a digital recorder with SPDIF coax, I was usually getting 77dBFS of dynamic range (closer to 90dB if I used a 70Hz low-cut filter) on real-world 48KHz recordings (as opposed to 66-72dB of dynamic range before you add in additional pre-amp noise or mic self-noise). ANd that was in my fairly noisy house.
Note that 16-bit audio has a dynamic range of 96dB (even that is usually reduced by dithering) while 24-bit has a dynamic range of 144dB. But a lot of gear does not come close to making the most of either.
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@thepalalias Hey Per - thanks for the response. So the answer to all these questions is "I don't know." But I'm happy to learn. My goal is to get the best sounding audio I can with the mics I have. Those are: Sennheiser ME-66, Audio Technica AT4053b, and a Sennheiser G3. I generally lav and boom. The ME-66 is for outdoor and the 4053b is for indoor.
The Zoom sounds ok, but I know it could sound better. Also, the Audio Technica mic needs 48v power, which sucks the Zoom dry in about an hour and a half. That, and dealing with the Zoom has been more of a nuisance, given batteries, extra audio (which is nice to have a backup, but still...). Also, budget is a big factor. So I'm not going to go with a high end mixer or recorder. So, just trying to see what my options are.
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@5thwall In that case, my advice would be to buy a mid-level recorder ($100-300 more than a Zoom H4n) and sell the H4n to reduce the cost. If you find the right one, it will cut your noise level noticeably. I seem to remember there some that would cut the perceived noise level in half or reduce it even further.
I am not fully up to date on the recorders released this year, but there are some great tests done by Martin Doppelbauer, including ones that use the Zoom h4n against other recorders. Search for "zoom h4n noise floor" and his site should be one of the first results.
Remember that a 10dB difference "sounds" like doubling or cutting it in half (depending on the direction) even though it mathmatically doubles or halves at a lower dB value (6dB if I remember correctly, but I am very, very sleep deprived right now so you could look it up for better accuracy :)
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@thepalalias yeah, was looking at the Tascam DR680, but I still want to dupe sound into the GH2 if possible. I don't think that one had a line out. Thanks for the search term. It led me to this site, which was particularly helpful: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
Given the cost and my recent purchases, I think I'll be sticking the H4n for now unless something in that price range comes out that has low noise (or lots and lots of work to pay for it all!).
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I'm still using the DR-680. It was nice to see that it fared well even in the Beachtek assessment, but for me the quality question was answered long ago. I've had some pro mixers listen to recordings I've done on the 680 and rave about it. I've also done a few recordings where I had to cut in sound from an H1 with sound recorded on the DR-680 and the noise floor difference is incredible. The 680 has a very low noise floor.
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The level of the Zoom H! has to be set to 37 for maximum signal to noise ratio. At 37 it is superb, anywhere else it is not superb :) We wrap 1/8 sheet foam around the inserts to reduce the occasional puff of wind indoors. A cheap outdoors dead cat is available from gigwigwindscreens.com which isn't as good as a blimp, but heck, it is portable :) I use the H1 stand-alone and dub in post.
Hmmm.. gigwigwindscreens seems to have disappeared since I bought my dead cat from them. Here is a suitable replacement, by the look of it:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110763862148 or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microphone-Wind-Shield-Deadcat-ZOOM-H1-Dead-Cat-FAST-DISPATCH-FREE-UK-POSTAGE-/260916551157
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@5thwall Makes sense. Best of luck getting enough work to be able to step up, though. :)
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@thepalalias thanks, man. grabbing a 48v phantom power supply today. should help and i stay within budget.
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