Diagonal rain appears using GH2 + Premiere Pro CS6 without a hack

andynz

Just to cmment I use FFMBC which is open source and encodes ProRes 422 on my windows PC. Only way I am aware to encode ProRes on windows. It works so will be interesting to compare Cineform and ProRes. I am guessing I will be hard pressed to see the difference.

As an aside if you encode 264 with GOP=1 does this make it less CPU intensive to decode given the decoder is working intra frame only. Just thinking about the hiccups you get when scanning through 264 clips normally.

andynz

Great, thanks Will download and give it a go. So a high bit rate ptools with GOP=1 is going to do the trick for direct import to PP?

LPowell

@andynz Cineform records in 4:2:2 color using a proprietary I-frame-only encoder. Unlike ProRes, the Cineform codec is available free from GoPro for both Mac and Windows:

http://gopro.com/software-app/cineform-studio/

andynz

I have FFMBC which I have used successfully for MKV to PRORES, is Cineform the same quality, better, worse than prores? Is Cineform available open source or paid?

andynz

I guess GOP=1 is I frame only so that would work but don't you end up loosing all the advantage of 264 encoding by having intra frame compression only rather than inter frame compression I+P with more of the bandwidth going into detail and reduced noise?

radikalfilm

I second DrDave, it's not the cam. Rain appears with other long-GOP implementations as well, from other cameras. Cineform is also subject to installed DirectShow decoders, DrDave claims to have eluded that, I haven't. I use Valkyrie @ GOP=3. I understand there is no rain @ GOP=1 either.

DrDave

It is not the cam. Don't waste your time with the cam, just use a 3 GOP patch or upsample to Cineform. Cineform looks awesome!

andynz

Hi guys. Can anyone who thinks their GH2 DOES NOT have the rain fault do us a favour. Can you shoot a 10 sec clip of a plain pale coloured wall, under exposed and the post it somewhere we can download it.

It would be good to have an example of any camera that apparently does nor exhibit this fault so we can make some progress on nailing what the problem is.

Cheers Andy

andynz

Tried removing my other MC software today but no luck, the fault remains. A bit tired of this today, will see if I feel refreshed with energy after the weekend :)

andynz

Thanks for the feedback guys. I am running CS6.0.3 Windows 7 64bit. My knowledge on usage of filters is limited and the merit system. I wasn't sure if PP calls a specific version of filter or uses the system wide settings for filters. If it is specific then I can see why CS5 would be ok and CS6 is not.

Balazar, I will have a look at the link you suggested. Will also try removing my Main Concept conversion program from my edit system as I wondered if this was interfering in some way. Jim over at Adobe forums says he does not have the fault and does not have any other MC software installed so I will try this to see if it changes anything.

For those of you seeing the fault, can you tell me what system you are running (win, OSX any other MC software etc) to so if there is any link. Thankfully I do have some time at the moment to try and figure this. Better to spend time now to save import time later :)

balazer

One could try unregistering the offending DirectShow filters. Though I suspect if CS6 is building the graph without regard to filter merit, it's trying to instantiate certain filters and it would just fail if they were not registered.

regsvr32 /u filename.ax

radikalfilm

@andynz Someone else on this forum tried to change the filters in CS6 and failed, which is bound to happen if the app doesn't use the "merit" system in DirectShow. We're talking Windows here, I have no idea how this is set up in OS X.

I personally tried (and failed for HDLink/Cineform - possibly user error) to change filter merits using this app: http://paul.glagla.free.fr/filmerit_en.htm

You may want to put some time into it, I don't have any.

andynz

Hi guys. Having the same conversation over on the Adobe Forums re the rain effect and Dr Dave has been posting there too but not much progress so far. This is a huge problem if you want to direct import GH2 MTS's into PP. Only work around that works for me is to use FFMBC and pre convert to Pro-Res. then the Pro-Res files import and work fine in CS6. http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1104226?start=40&tstart=0

I have tried many combinations now and even using stock 1.1 firmware the fault remains so I am not aware of any patch that works. I use an under exposed coloured wall as the test shot as it shows the railn effect really clearly. Using Premiere CS5 there is no rain, using CS6 there is. Using VLC- no fault, Windows Media Player - no fault, BS Player shows fault.

This is interesting as PP and BS Player use Main Concept filters. So it would all point to the fault being with the current Main Concept filters being buggy. All the more given using FFMBC (which I am pretty sure does not use Main Concept filters) reads and converts the files fine. Once in Pro-Res the Main Concept filters are not being used in CS6 so no fault appears.

Question is baring Adobe or Main Concept fixing the fault, which seems a distant hope, does anyone know if you can change the filters in CS6 from the ones in CS5. Is this possible and or simple?

Cheers Andy

DrDave

I, too, wanted to know why the rain, but then I decided I had better things to do and changed the patch.

radikalfilm

No problem with 5D2RGB which has its built-in decoder, not DirectShow. My impetus in this discussion was from an engineering POV.

I just attempted to use this software http://paul.glagla.free.fr/filmerit_en.htm to raise the "merit" of another H.264 decoder (I found one installed by DivX) over the MainConcept one. I still get rain with HDLink, maybe I did something wrong; the theory is fine :), Cineform tech does use DirectShow.

Regarding GOP: Yes, it may be as simple as that. I only have a sample size of N=1 for each GOP length so it's conjecture, but:

Flowmotion (GOP=6) --> rain

Valkyrie (GOP=3) --> no rain

DrDave

There are many different versions of HD Link, so I can't say what exactly the problem is, but if you have the same problem with 5d2RGB, then the "rain" is probably from some other source. I also was able to get rid of the artifacts by using some of the Driftwood patches, you could also try changing the GOP. Some people claim changing the GOP is all that is needed.

radikalfilm

@DrDave I just ran again my HDLink test and unlike you, I get rain, just like the first time. The only explanation that comes to mind is you have an additional DirectShow decoder for H.264 installed in your system, which overrides the one installed by CS6 (the MainConcept one).

HDLink uses DirectShow, and there is priority system (if there are multiple decoders available). CS6 however ignores this priority system and sticks to MainConcept.

DrDave

I took the card from the camera, and used HDLink to transcode to Cineform avi using the progressive setting, high quality, no pulldown, no resize. I used my licensed copy of Cineform, I have not tried the free one.

I'm assuming when you say digital rain, you see rain in CS6 where you do not see it when you playback the clip outside of CS6.

Here are two files, the first is the Cineform intermediary solution

https://truck.it/p/mOaWfQTQsN

The Second is the AVCHD file encoded directly from PP6

https://truck.it/p/jMrhW0Zc00

radikalfilm

@DrDave since you don't play by my bullet points (which would've made a difference), I have to ask again...

When you "transcoded to .avi", you were using what? HDLink? If not, how exactly does Cineform get into your workflow?

.avi is a container, did you actually transcode (to the Cineform codec), or you just rewrapped the AVCHD content in an .avi container?

In MY OWN tests, transcoding to Cineform using HDLink on Windows didn't get rid of the digital rain, because the H.264 DECODER used was the same faulty MainConcept decoder (implemented as a DirectShow filter) used by CS6.

I have not tried ReMaster on OS X, which is the HDLink equivalent, but since you stated you haven't used it, is not relevant for this discussion.

DrDave

I use mainly windows

I edited the vid both ways, one way using native mts (imported the whole card) and one where I joined the files using a file joiner (they are very long files), transcoded to *.avi (never use *.mov, seems to have some problems)

I never use the Cineform timeline. I always use the AVCHD timeline or one of the others. Don't use remaster

I also never use PP for pulldown since it only works half the time, but seem ppl seem not to see any difference. These clips, however, were all 24p from the beginning.

radikalfilm

@DrDave What does it mean to use "Cineform before rendering"? let's be very specific shall we?

a) Are you on Windows or OS X?

If on Windows, did you:

b) use HDLink to transcode .mts to Cineform avi/mov BEFORE editing

c) just used a Cineform timeline in which you placed the .mts

d) both

If on OS X, did you:

e) use ReMaster to transcode .mts to Cineform .mov BEFORE editing

f) just used a Cineform timeline in which you placed the .mts

g) both

Thanks for your feedback. "PP acting weird with AVCHD" has a root cause (MainConcept) and your answers will help clarify that.

DrDave

I had some vid that had the digital rain after rendering with PP CS6, and it disappeared after using Cineform before rendering. So I am assuming it is PP acting weird with AVCHD, which in fact it often does.

radikalfilm

@DrDave This I don't understand (not dumping on Cineform , I use it for mastering).

HDLink (don't know about ReMaster on Mac) uses whatever DirectShow decoder finds in the system (on Windows this being MainConcept if you have CS6) - at least in my testing.

BurnetRhoades

@PeterParkorr awww, I wouldn't actually say so if I hated it ;)

DrDave

I have had no problems with Cineform. It isn't ideal, but you get the advantage of the upsampling for grading.

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