Try hdtv natively supporting 24p display. That is 23.976 fps display. BTW I don't own such tv.

Go for all GH23s or whatever u call it. 24p is stable.

Oh, just to clarify, he used a 23.976 timeline and a 24 timeline. Okay, I'm out.

...um...is it me or does it seem strange that all of these claims of judder don't have any accompanying videos for us to look at? I sincerily have no idea what Dalefpf is talking about. I've heard of these judder claims before with the GH-1. But I've yet to see someone show an example of this "judder" (that is supposedly different from any every other 24p camera).

Now if one is referring to the "tearing" that we see in panning etc.,....then yeah...I always wondered why that happens (in GH-1, GH-2 and really....most CMOS footage I've seen). I don't see that kind of "tearing" in Apple movie trailers that originated on film. But I have to say...the GH-2 looks no different from any other HD camera (when it comes to motion).

Dalefpf please post an example of what you are talking about. I've watched a ton of GH-2 videos with lots and lots of motion in them and understanding that your "terrible" opinion, in regards to its motion cadence, is purley subjective mine is nowhere as extreme. Seeing is believing.

EDIT: What also comes to mind is how some folks with higher end cameras (like Red, AF100 etc.) have been seamlessy intermixing their footage with this camera. If there was that much of a difference it would (or should) have reared its ugly head by now....don't you think? But now that the hack is in full swing then......

@Elenion

After more panning tests with a pro kine tripod & head, I still can't tell if it's something in the camera or just the nature of 24 fps viewed on a 60p display. Shooting at 1080i60 or 720p60 are both MUCH better at smoothness, but so is shooting at 24H 80% and conforming back to 30. Unfortunately I don't have any other 24p DSLR footage to compare to.

The GH2 strobing reminds me of screening rushes at IMAX in 24 fps back in the 90s. The giant screen really exaggerates the strobing problem. IMAX experimented with a 48 fps format to try to solve the it, but the stock costs were prohibitive. And of course Doug Trumball had Showscan running at 48 fps and now talks about 60 and 120 fps as future standards. 120 would be great because 24, 30 and 60 could all be derived from it without artifacts and of course it would produce fabulous slow motion .

Strobing is also pretty visible sometimes in regular 24 fps theatrical movies when viewed on on a big screen.

For now I'm satisfied with the motion quality of both the conformed 24H 80% and 720p60. Both options are slightly problematic though - the 24H-80% has no sound, and it pushes the codec very hard so there are often "card too slow" errors (with kae's 60m settings). And the 720p though very good IQ looks a little soft when up-resed to 1080.

As a third option, I'm hoping that someone will pick up the ball to get the 1080 interleaved>progressive patch working properly, to give us a full-HD option without strobing.

@Dalefpf

I think that it would only be fair if you did allow us to see the footage that you are seeing the problem with so that others can chime in with their individual observations. It's not about raining on anyone's parade - there are lots of experienced people here as well, wouldn't it be helpful to open up the dialogue with direct obervation of the footage in question?

@Dalefpf:

Ok, since I'm a bit ignorant on what people are calling strobing I'll post some examples that I've come accross.


I remember the following video from a few months back by Gunther Machu. This was a side by side test with a hacked GH-1 vs GH-2. To me...there was no difference in motion between the two. I see Blackout's request for him to film a more crowded area like a beach etc., but... a motion difference is not evident in this video (IMO).:



Or... does strobing mean what PC CHongor mentions in this very recent video (where there is noise and pixelation in the dark areas)?:



Or.... is strobing the effect we see in the following video @ 1:47 - 1:55? This is the type of strobing I am very much familiar with. This happens in every kind of video camera when it comes to using the wrong shutter speed while viewing monitors or around flourescent/street lights etc.:




The following is a video test done by Mr. Barry Green displaying the effects of LED lights used with ALL CMOS cameras (including Red, F3, FS100 etc., etc.). It just so happens he is using a GH-2 for this test. I'll quote Barry's statement in this test:

"This was a sample video to show what effect a dimmable LED light will show, when used with a rolling-shutter CMOS camera (in this case a GH2). The more you dim the light, the more prevalent these scrolling bands become.

Certain lights (like the CN126) can be dimmed without these scrolling bars showing up, but some lights (like the YN160) cannot. The YN160 dims in discrete steps, it has a +/- button set that you press to move the light to the next dim stage. The CN126 has an analog wheel that you turn to progressively increase or decrease brightness.

The YN160 works great and strobe-free at 100% brightness, but at any dim level the scrolling bars show up. You can try to chase them away by changing the shutter speed, but if you were using two of these lights you would probably soon find it impossible to get a strobe-free look. Unless you used them always at 100% brightness.

Note -- this issue only affects CMOS camcorders; I tried the same test with the HMC150 CCD camera and there was no issue whatsoever. But any CMOS camcorder with a rolling shutter will show these same scrolling bars."



Now this last video is something I would probably consider the closest to what you guys are talking about. It is a video with lots of dolly movements and one could really see a very ugly "strobe-like" effect in many of the shots. I've never seen this effect in my camera...but if this is what you are referring to then yes...that is a problem. This is one of only a few videos from the GH-2 I've seen it in. Then again...there are a lot of other things wrong in this video (Vimeo compression is one). I also remember early on seeing it in other cameras (especially GH-1) but folks called it "pulsing effect.":






As you can see these examples are different from one another. Now you can hopefully understand why I asked what I asked in my last post. With that said...I'm not even sure if everyone here is referring to the same thing. So...when it comes to the subject of this thread it goes back to you Dalefpf. Can you point out in any of the linked videos above what you are referring to... or maybe provide your own example? I really want to learn more. Thanks.

Without one-to-one comparisons, it will be hard to say. It seems every new video camera goes through the same question regarding overall motion and judder.

Grab another video camera and set the frame rate and shutter to the exact same settings. Next, carefully setup your shots so they are as close as possible in capturing the same motion and speed across the sensor.

surely if this issue is so prevalent and obvious, it should be pretty easy to point to any number of vimeo videos with this problem. there must be heaps of 1080p24 videos with panning where it would be visible.

i look back at all the 24H video i've taken and i can't see a problem at all, all pans are nice and smooth. the only big thread i read about this and after 9 pages it turned out to be a playback problem.

there are so many variables here:
shutter speed
panning rate
in-camera adjustments
as well as playback variables:
playing back on computer? is it the raw mts or transcoded? what decoder (ffdshow/ffmpeg, internal vlc, mpc-hc w/dxva, coreavc, ...)?, what renderer (evr, evr sync, haali, madvr, vmr-9, opengl, ...)? tried using ReClock?
output device (lcr, crt, projector)? refresh rate of output device (50/60hz, 23.976hz, 120hz)?

i might even go and shoot a quick pan tomorrow and upload the raw mts so we can all be looking at the same source footage as a comparison.

i am genuinely curious as to what this issue is, mostly because i don't have any other raw footage to compare it to so i'm worried there is a problem here that i don't perceive but would be visible for others.

I think it is quite incredible that no one here can see the effect. Obviously in the clips posted by Ian_T this effect is not evident because movements are minimal, most with tele, blurred with low dof, vintage lenses with few definition. And they are in most cases clips that want to be beautiful, then bad shoots are out.
If you want to check the effect just take a medium-wide lens, go outside in the garden, close the diaphram and move the camera quite fast around the garden. You can see 24p strobe effect that in gh2 is way more evident than elsewhere. If you can't make this test i'll make a clip tomorrow or the day after.
But, again, i think that the effect is obvious and i can't believe that you never noticed it.

@Rambo

I suggest to use high bitrate MJPEG for testing of any such issues.
As it is simple intra encoder, so all motion artefacts can be caused by sensor only.

Question for those having the strobe problem: What filters are you using? I was shooting a bunch of panning b-roll on my 701 head today and had zero strobe, even in similar situations to above, even in hdmi playback. I almost always have a nd filter on, and often a black frost. Could that be softening or diffusing the strobe perhaps? Have people still experienced strobe with a strong nd filter?