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Wabi-sabi
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  • cbrandincbrandin

    @B3Guy - Holy crap! Jazz at its best - true intercourse. Well... now that we're going in that direction... I live near Denver and there is this great jazz club (small) and we regularly get another favorite of mine:

  • nomadnomad

    @cbrandin

    Back to shutters – I dig Hammond too, BTW, remember Brian Auger and Julie Driscoll?

    I think your idea is quite promising for two reasons:

    – When people see footage shot on RED with HDRx, they generally say it looks more cinematic. I think it's the motion trail generated by the longer exposure for the darker parts, blended mildly into the highlights.

    – Twixtor works very well if you don't try to generate serious slo-mo, but only fill in frames. I used it recently for a well-known video artist, who had her project already shot in 50p to slow things down, but later was still unhappy since her camerawoman made a few turns a tad too fast (it was a very long uncut sequence). So, we tried generating intermediate frames to screen it with higher (albeit fake) temporal resolution. We both tested 1080i50 and 720p50, and she liked i50 the best. After all, i50 is blending the additional temporal information into the motion, and it looked quite smooth.

    So, let's start experimenting with intermediate frames generated by Twixtor and mixed in by different overlay modes, maybe even blurred to some degree and see if we can make electronic shutter look any better.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    +1, very interested to see what can be done with this. How much does Twixtor cost? I don't have it right now. (P.S. if Barbara is the jazz Hammond queen, Joey is the king. Also, Billy Preston as far as I am concerned was one of the Beatles. If John wanted it so, so it was.)

  • nomadnomad

    Twixtor ain't cheap, but you can always use the watermarked demo to test our theory.

    Maybe we should open a new thread to share this experiment?

  • cbrandincbrandin

    I don't have Twixtor and have never used it - so take this with a grain of salt. A couple of things occur to me:

    Recommended settings for Twixtor, like shutter speed, etc... assume you want to create slow motion. This would be a different application so those rules may not apply. Specifically, I suspect you don't want faster shutter speeds; rather for 24p, for example, you probably want to stick with 1/50th or thereabouts.

    Ideally, you probably want to create something like 10x the frames. These would be combined as overlays using only some of the interpolated frames stacked something like this:

    New frame = Original frame plus interpolated frame -1 at 20% plus frame -2 at 10%, same with frame +1 and frame +2. To avoid ghosting it's probably appropriate to blur the interpolated frames somewhat.

    Does that make sense to you? I pulled the actual percentages, etc... out of my ass, so I don't know what the actual numbers would need to be. Can Twixtor do this kind of thing?

  • nomadnomad

    Twixtor together with AE will do nearly anything you can imagine. But your approach will generate heavy rendering times. I'd suggest a much simpler solution for a first try: just generate one intermediate frames for any given "real" frame. If I remember well, you can bias frames to one of the neighbors, so maybe one should generate two, closer in time to the originals. Soften them and mix them in with an appropriate mixing mode, like "soft screen". Play with their opacity.

    But let's start a thread of it's own. It will attract more testers and I think Vitaliy will like that too. I appreciate that he wants to keep things tidy.

  • cbrandincbrandin

    Starting a new thread is a great idea. After all this thread is about B3's - err, i mean Wabi-sabi ;-)

  • stoneystoney

    @cbrandin You good. Real good at hijacking thread!!!

  • Mark_the_HarpMark_the_Harp

    Ah, @stonebat The thread is no longer perfect. Enjoy the imperfection!

  • stoneystoney

    @Mark_the_Harp Thanks for the enlightenment!

  • johnnymjohnnym

    @cbrandin OMG man you worked for Ensoniq. They have some of the coolest algorithms ever. Highly underestimated to this day.

  • davhardavhar

    Nothing is or can be perfect or imperfect in a universe forever expanding where no thing is permanent… but impermanence itself. Or not. Maybe.

  • bkmcwdbkmcwd

    @stonebat Thanks for interesting thread! As for me, it is very interesting that the foreigner is discussing Wabi-sabi, and I also love B3 Hammond! :-)

    About Wabi-sabi, we the Japanese always feel it in the life. Since I was often performing JAZZ and the blues before, I can also understand the relevance of Wabi-sabi and B3.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    hmm . . . percentages from cbrandin's ass, eh? How much to ship a couple of those to USA? Ass percentages are pretty common in this country, but mostly all have to do with politics, not cameras and are therefore useless on GH2 unless you're in Ex-Tele mode.

  • stoneystoney

    @bkmcwd Globalization man. Darn globalization. Cultures are getting intermingled across the borders. I see more American guys going crazy about SNSD from Korea.

    We are imperfect. Gh2 is imperfect. But it's ok if one pays attention to imperfect yet subtle detail.

  • bkmcwdbkmcwd

    @stonebat

    "Globalization"

    Yes, sure! :-)

    However, as for original Wabi-sabi for us, "it is simple and quiet" is a central meaning rather than "imperfection." About "the simple and quiet" which we feel, I can also understand being felt as "imperfection." However, I think that it is not necessarily a central sense of values even if it is "imperfection" as a result.

    "We are imperfect. Gh2 is imperfect. But it's ok if one pays attention to imperfect yet subtle detail."

    Well, I completely agree with this.

  • stoneystoney

  • stoneystoney

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @stonebat

    I saw this movie.

    Did not like it, really, as it represents typical journalist approach, and depiction of only sucessfull people in the field. About 90% people who develop mobile games never ever return invertments.

  • stoneystoney

    That's one way to look at it. Money. Fame. Success. Applaud.

    Writing games is how they express what they feel about the world around them. It's quite resonating. So wabi sabi.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Writing games is how they express what they feel about the world around them. It's quite resonating.

    I doubt all this things about "express what they feel about the world around them". This is good sounding words, but they have zero relation to reality.

    I'll tell this as follows. This guys do things that they like, about 90% of them fail. And about 70% of this fails are very hard fails, specially omitted by press. So, this film can be viewed from other side - like pro-narcotics film, promoting activity that brings most income to big corporations who own software shops.

    You went bankrupt or have $1 per week? This is fine with them, as your app is amoungs this "we have 2 million apps in our store". As this is same motherfuckers who promoted across every major media that somehow people must start to pay $1-$4, instead of $10-30 for same or more work. Fuck this motherfuckers and heroes of this film.

    I am all for banning all corporations from right to have their stores.

  • stoneystoney

    I wouldn't downplay those who work hard and sharpen their skills even if they don't get paid a lot.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    I wouldn't downplay those who work hard and sharpen their skills even if they don't get paid a lot.

    I am also pretty ok with them, until they start being promoted by this film. Plus all the guys who had been promoted had been paid a lot, actually. This is whole point of this film.

  • stoneystoney

    Let's agree to disagree. We all have a different perspective. The film isn't all good or all bad.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    The film isn't all good or all bad.

    It is not bad. As I said, it is typical approach of journalist.
    I call it - 2 points approach. Unproportionally inflated emotions and focus on deadlines.

    This film, as I said, also has other main point (why it is being selected for contests and why they could access all this guys) - promoting mobile game developing. This is point I am strongly against.

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