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Unmanageable complexity 2
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  • @Vitaltiy_Kiselev

    "Point is in making some model that has certain advantages. Current "democracy" with all institutions did not existed 200 years ago, yet long time ago many smart men proposed things that fuck you every day now in all available holes."


    Yes, it may be worthwhile postulating such a model. However I always felt that the reason democracies or autocracies fail is more to do with flaws in human nature than to do with any systemic failures. Can we have a model that address flaws that existed in us ever since our inception? Democracies, autocracies, socialism, capitalism etc. all tried to address the bad side of the human nature, only to end up exposing themselves to another less than ideal ideal side of us. Hopefully there could be models that balances out the good vs bad nature of the solutions that have been tried out so far. We could perhaps look at the often successful examples of Nordic countries etc. and learn some lessons. Hope is never a bad thing anyway :)

  • We could perhaps look at the often successful examples of Nordic countries etc. and learn some lessons.

    I absolutely do not agree with use of word "successful" here. Nordic countries failed miserably.

    However I always felt that the reason democracies or autocracies fail is more to do with flaws in human nature than to do with any systemic failures.

    Models compete. Now competition is between companies, communities and countries.
    They develop much more quickly than eny natural organisms. Right now we see how prevailing model is failing and will be eliminated soon.

    As for human nature - every model is made by humans and for humans, so all of them account for human hature issues. And every model fails, sooner or later.
    Same as every organism dies.

  • Can we have a model that address flaws that existed in us ever since our inception?

    We have one, it's called Democracy.

  • We have one, it's called Democracy.

    Brian, as usual you try to post about religion in economics topic :-)

  • Brian, as usual you try to post about religion in economics topic :-)

    Have to admit, that's a good one :)

  • "And every model fails, sooner or later. Same as every organism dies."

    I agree. That's why I feel myself a bit more liberal-socialist, to be open to change and personal initiative but with solidarity for who is less lucky. Or this is what I like to say. And I know this do not solve my or your existence, maybe because existence do not need a "solution". The problem of ideology and models is that makes you want compress reality inside your model, but will not fit. My opinion is that an "organic" approach to society is a bit more open-minded than a "mechanic" approach: after all we are not machines, aren't we?

  • @fegato Yes...and you ideally work with what is actually around you. I mean Vitaliy's ideas would be interesting to run as a simulation. I was part of one of these in a big organisation and it threw up all sorts of interesting complexities over the three days it ran. Not convinced it produced repeatable results but it certainly raised a lot of issues that people hadn't considered.

  • @brianluce "We have one, it's called Democracy."

    I do believe in Democracy, but to call it fair or flawless may not be accurate. Democracies can be very flawed too.

  • @Vitaltiy_Kiselev "I absolutely do not agree with use of word "successful" here. Nordic countries failed miserably."

    I am a bit surprised with that statement. I do not know on what benchmarks you call them a failure. Generally they top many socioeconomic rankings. I could be wrong too, as I haven't really read deeply enough to see what failures they may have had that outweighs their apparent success in many areas.

    @Vitaltiy_Kiselev "Right now we see how prevailing model is failing and will be eliminated soon. As for human nature - every model is made by humans and for humans, so all of them account for human hature issues. And every model fails, sooner or later. Same as every organism dies."

    I am also suggesting the same. Human beings may die, their systems might collapse over time, but the basic human frailties have remained the same and it will continue to be so in future also. Unless we get to make genetically modified human beings with these flaws ironed out :)

  • I do believe in Democracy, but to call it fair or flawless may not be accurate. Democracies can be very flawed too.

    It's not perfectly fair or flawless. But it's got a reputation as the best hedge against the lesser angels of human nature. Democracy isn't fertile ground for avarice and totalitarianism to take root. Democracy does a good job of forcing transparency among the political class. It's not perfect, but I'm hard pressed to think of a preferable political system.

  • I am a bit surprised with that statement. I do not know on what benchmarks you call them a failure. Generally they top many socioeconomic rankings. I could be wrong too, as I haven't really read deeply enough to see what failures they may have had that outweighs their apparent success in many areas

    Dig into subject. Or have a long talk with native. This countries are pretty fucked.

    I am also suggesting the same. Human beings may die, their systems might collapse over time, but the basic human frailties have remained the same and it will continue to be so in future also. Unless we get to make genetically modified human beings with these flaws ironed out :)

    You are suggesting not to think and not to do anything because homans have certain "nature". And I already replied that it is shitty position.

  • "Right now we see how prevailing model is failing and will be eliminated soon.

    It's not failing for the overclass. It's just failing for the rest of us.

  • It's not failing for the overclass. It's just failing for the rest of us.

    Nope, it is failing from top to bottom. Elites can't exist without all else. Of course, they have temorary solution eliminating middle class to buy some time. Won't work.

  • @brianluce "It's not perfectly fair or flawless. But it's got a reputation as the best hedge against the lesser angels of human nature. Democracy isn't fertile ground for avarice and totalitarianism to take root. Democracy does a good job of forcing transparency among the political class. It's not perfect, but I'm hard pressed to think of a preferable political system."

    While not arguing with Brian’s position, I would like to point out a few things.

    I have lived in both autocratic and democratic countries for long and what I have come to realize is that as far as their abilities to ensure the welfare of the country and its people are concerned, there is nothing intrinsically bad or good about either of them. If anything, a well meaning autocracy will be faster, efficient compared to a well meaning democracy. However autocracies are more prone become corrupt and can be difficult to correct, where as democracies can be equally be corrupt, but are easier to correct. Then there are certain decisions, even if it is the right decision by large, that cannot be executed by a democracy simply because it is a democracy as democracies tend to be more politically correct than correct.

    The transparency that democracies seem to enjoy may not mean much if what you see through the transparency is distorted, as Vitaliy pointed out. Such distortion is often worse than opacity that autocracies tend to court because people believe the distortions to be truth and they will feel righteous about themselves because they have ‘seen’ it themselves.

    I have seen totalitarian regimes flourish, while democracies struggle under the weight of its own democratic nature. Many of the advantages that are attributed to democracies are actually the positives rubbing off from the society in question. A well developed society will thus flaunt democracy to good effect than an underdeveloped society.

    I am not championing the cause of autocracy over democracy, but just saying both can be good or bad. The model Vitaliy outlined in his OP is tailor made for a well meaning autocracy, but will not thrive or can go hugely wrong under democracies or bad autocracies.

  • @Vitaltiy_Kiselev "You are suggesting not to think and not to do anything because homans have certain "nature". And I already replied that it is shitty position."

    I had already made it clear in previous post that not to do anything may not have been the right argument to make. As for accepting flaws in human nature is to accept the fact, not a taking any specific position.

  • @ppcroft

    autocracies are more prone become corrupt and can be difficult to correct, where as democracies can be equally be corrupt, but are easier to correct.

    It's the "Easier to correct" part that I like. Dictators rarely go quietly into the night.

    Many of the advantages that are attributed to democracies are actually the positives rubbing off from the society in question. A well developed society will thus flaunt democracy to good effect than an underdeveloped society.

    I like this. I have a different way of saying it though and that's that Democracy is something you earn. You can't impose it with a Hellfire missile like was done in Iraq nor can you put it in a gift basket as was done in the Philippines.