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Greece: Better and better
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Data from Greece's statistics service on Thursday showed unemployment hit 21.7 percent in February from a revised 21.3 percent in January. In the 15-24 age group it rose to 54 percent, explaining the big youth vote for anti-bailout parties, led by the radical Left Coalition.

    The data showed nearly 1.1 million people were jobless, 42 percent more than in the same month a year ago, reflecting the damage as the country's 215 billion euro economy continues to contract for a fifth consecutive year.

    Via: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/10/us-greece-unemployment-idUSBRE8490IO20120510

  • 34 Replies sorted by
  • ahblezaahbleza

    The situation with Greece is getting worse, at least according to the betting agents, who are refusing to take more bets about Greece leaving the Euro....

    http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/55468

    And the BBC is reporting that top European bankers are openly discussing their exit.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18046280

    Personally, I think it's the only play for their economy. They should have left six months ago. Then things can improve. Now that France has changed governments to one with anti-austerity leanings, I can't see the Germans continuing to bully the rest of Europe into maintaining the Greek status quo pro ante, and German voters are unlikely to have the stomach to pay for it themselves.

  • karlkarl

    I think that "staying or leaving" the Euro zone is not the most relevant of questions for Greece, the most relevant thing is how the situation can be managed without entering a state of destructive, violent civil unrest.

    IMHO Greece should have defaulted already many months ago, for at least these two reasons:

    1) Investors will learn only the hard way that loaning money to a country means taking a risk of not being paid back. It's that simple. If not as many investors had loaned money as easily to Greece in the past, Greece would have been forced to consolidate its finances much earlier, while their debt was not as huge.

    2) If there ever was an occasion to explain to the average Greek what the consequences of defaulting are, this occasion was missed. Only when Greece actually defaults, its people will know that all those things they could import for cheaply loaned money will simply stop to be shipped. That won't be pleasant, but it is also a chance for their local economy, which will have a chance to manufacture and sell things in Greece that formerly where imported.

    Maybe Greece will leave the Euro, maybe not, that doesn't really make a difference to the height of their remaining debt which they loaned in Euro.

  • brianlucebrianluce

    IMO, the primary issue with Greece isn't elections, the Euro, austerity or investment, it's that Greeks social/political institutions are rotten and corrupt and until that changes, Greece is basically fucked.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Greeks social institutions are rotten and corrupt and until that changes, Greece is basically fucked

    I think it is common fairy tale, I mean "institutions are rotten and corrupt" :-) This will be soon repeated again and again around the world.

  • brianlucebrianluce

    @Vitaliy I don't follow you, you're saying it's false, that Greek institution are actually pristine and above board and that there's a fictitious narrative spreading around the planet that corruption is rampant on a Global scale when in fact the opposite is true?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    I do not say that they are pristine. I just say that thay are not much better or worse then institutions in other countries.
    And do not support pointless talks about "rotten and corrupted" institutions.

  • brianlucebrianluce

    And do not support pointless talks about "rotten and corrupted" institutions. //////////

    That's unfortunate because there is new and powerful evidence that corrupt institutions are the root of social injustice that characterize these times. Apathy and cynicism won't help the world go 'round.

    I do not say that they are pristine. I just say that thay are not much better or worse then institutions in other countries. /////////////

    This is patently untrue. You need to travel more. Spend a month in Bangladesh then go spend a month in Denmark and then tell me they are the same.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    You need to travel more. Spend a month in Bangladesh then go spend a month in Denmark and then tell me they are the same.

    LOL. So, you think that this countries main difference is in institutions?

  • brianlucebrianluce

    LOL. So, you think that this countries main difference is in institutions? ////////////

    All I can tell you is some of planet's top young economists at places like MIT and Harvard are doing research on this very subject and THEY don't think it's funny.

    Here's your first clue: North and South Korea. What's different about them fundamentally? Institutions.

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    Angela Merkel needs to travel more as well. On the current level, it is a matter of solidarity, and all the politicians only pander to their own electorate. So, NO, Euro will not be saved by half assed austerity morons! Greece voted the way it did because it was BETRAYED by the EU! So let them swim or sink, who the fuck needs an union like that! Also to all the souvereignity fans, I only have one thing to say, quoting Mr. Paddy Ashdown; "eat your nationalism"! No borders, no working permits, no nationalities, then maybe we can START getting somewhere!

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    MIT and Harvard are doing research on this very subject and THEY don't think it's funny

    I think we are going next round here. You think that institutions are the problems, i think that this "researches" are more serious problem.
    As every "researcher" who supports idea of forcing some (may be ideal, as they think) insitutions on other nations must be punished.

    North and South Korea. What's different about them fundamentally? Institutions

    Nope. Just look into history, plus geographic and climate differencies.
    North Korean institutions are highly effective, as they can survive in very hard situation.
    If you state will be blocked, including food suppliers for years, with bunch of troops and ships nearby and constant attempts to organize invasion, I have big doubts that you'll live better. I am really sure that you'll live much worse than North Koreans.

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    So, abolish institutions?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @allenswrench

    No borders, no working permits, no nationalities, then maybe we can START getting somewhere!

    Generally we are already got to current situation because of this ideas. :-)

    I am strong supported of exactly opposite view. Strong borders, pragmatic national goverments with full soverinity, no global currencies.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    So, abolish institutions?

    Where did you get this?

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    I know you hate "easy" solutions. Yet, borders, nationalities, racial profiling have all been proven inefficient! Are you ready to do that, or is the national pride and tribal sense of belonging too stong? Let's climb this last ladder of free market, so we can bury it for good! I thought so...

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    Sorry but I don't want to be a sheep, no matter how great my heard is!#

  • brianlucebrianluce

    Nope. Just look into history, plus geographic and climate differencies. North Korean institutions are highly effective, as they can survive in very hard situation. //////////////

    It's the same Peninsula! The same culture!

    This post confirms and proves Super String Theory because clearly you and I are from different Universes.

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    Abolish institutions? I would if proven inefficient. Why keep flagging the dead horse? We have many more atavistic problems like religion, nationalities etc... Abolish all this shit and see what the populace is really capable of.. not much after church and tv, but hey

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    It is very popular to look at unwashed masses as extra load, but it is the fault of church and their avoidance of family planning and contraception. Freaking nationalize them and their properties (nobody wants to be a priest anymore anyway unless a pedo) and it would be a start.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Yet, borders, nationalities, racial profiling have all been proven inefficient!

    I also hate words twisting, adding your own words, getting bunch of things together and making absolute propositions.

    I see nothing wrong with pragmatic national goverments with full soverinity. As they existed for thousands of years. And your "free market" is really young, defective child who even must survive next few years.

    This post confirms and proves Super String Theory because clearly you and I are from different Universes

    LOL. We are not. Just your model of the world is made on the data that had been available to you, and mostly based on democratic(r) mass media brainwashing. And our models are wastly different.

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    @brianluce if you admire north korean "institutions" for being able to "survive", yet conveniently forgetting they had a famine that killed tens of thousands, then I am almost tempted to leave this space blank... Much comment needed?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @allenswrench

    I remind you of edit option, it is pointless to post two times :-)

    Got your ideas, and I am sad to say, but this is exactly some of ideas that made all current situation. I do not agree to any of them.

  • allenswrenchallenswrench

    @Vitaly sorry, I think national hearding has no future. There will be a lot more hardship and gulags, yes, but in the long run, it is a primitive form of organization that is illogical. Good for you we only live a short life. So, fuck both my country and yours, borders only apply to citizens already, not corporations.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    yet conveniently forgetting they had a famine that killed tens of thousands, then I am almost tempted to leave this space blank... Much comment needed?

    I suggest to spend good time to read about North Korea, causes of their problems, their science programs and their manufacturing. I'll be always keeping discussion level on this site. And never allow to talk on such low level common to mass media.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @allenswrench

    So, fuck both my country and yours, borders only apply to citizens already, not corporations.

    OK, got it. Corporations are the good future, global slavery is also good, fuck the social guarantees. I really suggest you to talk to real people. And understand something about real economy.

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