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Black Magic: Workflow
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Also try to formulate few things that we touched in main BM topic.

    First, of course, RAW workflow requires some investments in HDD place and preferable also speed (like RAID, etc).

    Existing Premiere CS5.5 and upcoming CS6 support working with CinemaDNG (as it is Adobe format after all).

  • 30 Replies sorted by
  • OedipaxOedipax

    I really see myself shooting prores with the log gamma curve most of the time. As long as banding isn't an issue I think it will be plenty for me.

    Does anyone know what variant of prores BMD is using? 422 HQ? 4444?

    If it's straight 422 then the file sizes will actually be smaller than what I'm getting out of my hacked GH2 right now!

  • kavadnikavadni

    Onky clue I have is that my Hyperdeck Shuttle and Hyperdeck Studio are 4:2:2

    4:4:4 is available on the Hyperdeck Studio Pro.

  • jfrojfro

    deleted by user, will repost after some more research.

  • jfrojfro

    Last week I was out shooting some GH2 Gop3 footage and also from same 36 locations shot 5D mark II raw photo frames. I processed the 5D Mark II footage first and was 100% satisfied with my images. When I was grading the GH2 footage, I was thinking I could do so much better if I could process the frames in Lightroom.

    Premier CS5.5 has a DNG importer and I believe only works with 8Bit DNG files. Not sure on Lightroom 3. With Lightroom 4 out, I'm hoping it will work with these higher bit files.

    Of course, with the bundled software, we may already have the tools we need.

  • peterdv_dot_competerdv_dot_com

    @Oedipax

    According to Black magic specifications:

    recording format/compression are

    • Adobe CinemaDNG @ 2.5K
    • Apple ProRes Log 4:2:2 HQ @ 1080
    • Avid DNxHD @ 1080

    ProRes & DNxHD can be recorded using either a "Film" (log) or "Video" (Rec. 709) gamma.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    CinemaDNG importer for After Effects CS5, Premiere Pro CS5, and Premiere Pro CS5.5

    http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/cinemadng.html

  • MacalincagMacalincag

    Known Issues: (Premiere Pro)

    • The Importer only supports 8-bit frames. Frames with higher bit-depths are not supported.

    • To process a sequence of DNG files, the user selects the first file in the sequence. It is not necessary to select multiple files or to import a folder. The Importer automatically looks for sequentially named files in the same enclosing folder and builds a sequence from the found files.

    http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/cinemadng/releasenotes.html

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    I looked into this and it seems that they mean 8bits debayered result.

    So you can get source 12bit linear raw and convert to 8bit (with all adjustment specific to this conversion).

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Guys, can enyone make me list of NLEs that support Apple ProRes or Avid DNxHD?
    For both Mac and PC?

  • mrbillmrbill

    Avid supports both on both

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    It'll be interesting to see CinemaDNG support difference in new CS6

  • kavadnikavadni

    I can state after tests last night, that I cannot get CinemaDNG into AVID using this file: http://www.ikonoskop.com/files/143/A-Cam_dll_Night_CinemaDNG.zip into Media Composer either directly or via MetaFuze. I can in theory transcode CinemaDNG to Cineform and and use metafuze.

    Metafuze Link: http://www.avid.com/US/industries/workflow/MetaFuze

    That said AVID is part of the CinemaDNG initiative, so I am confident it will follow.

    Also AMA in Avid means third parties can 'easily' write a plugin

  • plasmasmpplasmasmp

    If you'd like an easier way to convert DNG to Cineform Raw and you have a copy of DPX2CF (you can also download trial of Cineform Studio Premium which includes it). I made a little scripted utility that makes it easier to convert if you aren't that great with command line utilities. I posted the details here: http://eyepatchfilms.com/?p=903

    scripting.jpg
    479 x 398 - 68K
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    http://www.personal-view.com/faqs/blackmagic-cinema-camera/workflow

    I am searching for people who'll work on this part of FAQ.

  • PappasArtsPappasArts

    Adobe CinemaDNG is over kill in so many ways, where as ProRes HQ & Avid DNxHD will suffice for the majority of projects. On the Alexa not an issue using ProRes.

    The data management costs and infrastructure needed for RAW is fine if you can afford the IT/Data management team to handle it, however independents or smaller scale commercial production/Efx's house's will drown very quickly with their data flow over time.

    The great advantage to high end productions- the data team handles this, and you don't see it from the day to day work on production. That being if your the DP, Director, Producer type positions. You hire a team to manage all the data backups, transfers etc. Small scale productions already fight an uphill battle to get their production done, and at a good level of quality work. I see RAW at 2.5K good for green screen/efx's work. Now with 4K, 5K, 6k and up, that compression becomes much more important as it rises. More nuances to loose within the larger/denser image.

    However 2.5K, it's over kill for a good majority of smaller productions. Just glad the BMC has the options, as I've been privately informed that it was only going to be RAW only early on. Luckily BM also added ProRes and DNxHD to the BMC. This is going to evolve over time. This is BMC v.1, over the next years there will be other cameras that eclipse this one from BM. It's all gravy to me now days. We have tools that cost a fraction of what it cost years ago, however we get much more for less money spent today.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @PappasArts

    Adobe CinemaDNG is over kill in so many ways, where as ProRes HQ & Avid DNxHD will suffice for the majority of projects. On the Alexa not an issue using ProRes.

    I think problem here is not raw, but specific format selected.

    Such camera require good compressed raw, with from 3:1 to 9:1 ratios.

    As for ProRes HQ & Avid DNxHD . Current camera is not very suitable for workflow not based on raw, as it lack many features.

  • DocoDocoManDocoDocoMan

    I paid a deposit today for a BMD Cinema Camera, supplier is still expecting to deliver in July. Happy to work on FAQ once it is actually in my hands...

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @DocoDocoMan

    Thanks for post, but I think you used wrong topic.
    Considering faq, we have separate maintanance topic (and we gladly accept your help with FAQ). And about deposits - I think general BMC topic is more approproate.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    A RAW workflow asks a lot from those who would use it. Firstly, it pretty much demands an extra processing step. In the same way shooting on film meant you had to “process” the film. The same thing happens with raw workflows, and you can’t realistically use the RAW files to edit with. You have to transcode them into more edit friendly forms. There are two ways to approach this.

    1. You can choose to do this step once and never return to the RAW files. In this way you’d apply either a “one light” grade, that is a simple grade that get’s you 90% of your look. You can then render or transcode to an edit friendly codec and do any final balancing in your edit suite using the NLE colour correction tools. You could even transcode a “log” version of your files and transcode to a high data rate, high bit depth codec like ProRes 4444 to ensure you retain all your colour information.

    2. Or…. you can do it in a way that means you come back to the RAW files once you’ve finished editing to *re-grade and transfer the files. So you’d do a simple one light grade in Resolve first and then transcode to a edit friendly codec. Once you’ve completed your edit, go back into Resolve to do the final grade from the original so RAW source files. This way is arguably the way to get the utmost from the images, but it introduces a two process step with Resolve.*

    Both workflow’s have their advantages and disadvantages.

    Via: http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/in-the-raw/

  • kavadnikavadni

    There is also a third option, the method I intend to use, if the Cinema Camera outputs its timecode via the SDI and/or Thunderbolt.

    The method involves recording RAW internally in the camera and an edit friendly format via the SDI or Thunderbolt. This efectively provides the 'one light' with no transcoding time.

    This method enables a fast turnaround .. one can commence editing immediately with the external recordings. The project can be 'offlined' with out using Resolve at all, and an 'online' performed in Resolve via import of XML (or whatever .. I still call it EDL edit decision list)

    While there is the cost of additional external recorder .. it may suit you dependent on how you value 'time vs capital cost'

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    I think that transcoding time is, generally, not big issue here.

  • kavadnikavadni

    I am not sure how long Resolve takes, I decided to skip installing the 9lite version .. and just wait for the full version

  • RRRRRRRR

    Wouldn´t it be possible to do a "one step in principal" workflow? That is; encode for an edit friendly format. Lock down project when finished in editor and bring into AE, replace with raw and grade / color from the originals. Render out finished project.

  • kavadnikavadni

    @RRRR, I think it probably is as the files can be opened in AE. Relinking I have not investigated in AE .. in my case using Media Composer when editing with a 36mbs proxy, I relink to Camera Footage before sending a sequence to AE.

    If I get a 'high end' production running (read as I get to do some VFX other than for fun), I envisage my paths as: cuts in AVID with a 36Mbs 8bpc proxy .. relink to 12bpc RAW in resolve for a Grade 16bpc? (I think it works at 16) .. export sections to AE for VFX 32bpc .. back to Resolve for final render.

    RAW is new to me, I've cut a few projects shot on RED .. however the footage came to me pregraded .. all of them except for one were finished here with a tweak to the grade at broadcast resolution .. the exception was sent off as an EDL (that project looked horribly overexposed to me while editing it).. they were all cut, dissolve and grade only projects.

    RAW is new to me .. so everything I say is speculation

  • RRRRRRRR

    @kavadni same here.. Curious to try it out. Re-linking should work ok in AE if memory serves me, but there are other variables to take into account.. And many of these potential choices would depend on the project, too.

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