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24p to 25p Conversions/conforms
  • RamboRambo

    How many PAL users on Personal Views are shooting the superior 24p cinema mode and converting/conforming to 25p? Apart from the affect this has on audio and assuming footage is all shot where 50Hz flicker is not an issue ( ie outdoors - daylight), are you finding this is a better solution than shooting HBR 25 if the conversion/conform is done correctly?

  • 45 Replies sorted by
  • MeierhansMeierhans

    I do so. Flicker is no problem with tungsten of flickerfree HMI as long as you keep you shutter on 1/50.

  • RamboRambo

    Hey thanks for you input, how do you find the 24p to 25p as an image quality workflow solution compared to HBR 25. Is the extra work worth the effort for you.? I can't tell the difference when I mix converted footage with other high quality 25p from other Pro cameras when used in the same project. Has that been your experience too?

  • s_maurices_maurice

    FWIW, Before we had the 25HBR, I did a test of about 20min with the GH2 on 24 fps and my GH1 on 25. Put them on the kitchen bench looking through the kitchen and out into the backyard. Dropped them in Vegas into a 25p comp. (when mixing formats in Vegas always set properties to Absolute Frames, and disable resample on all affected clips.) Muting one then the other I could not see any issues on movement ( even with me jumping around and lots of arm waving). But, I didnt examine it at 400%, and check for jaggies on the edges of movement and such, they may have been there... At 1080p on a 27" monitor it looked pretty good though.

  • RamboRambo

    S_maurice, I would have expected some form of offset between them. My workflow involves converting the 24p to cineform with iframe only export (tick the iframe box) then importing into Vegas, retiming the 24p 95.904% and then exporting as 25p. I then reintroduce the converted footage to Vegas with the other 25p footage. Is there anyone else doing something like this? It's interesting to know what other workflows are out there.

    S_maurice, How did it compare to the HBR you are getting now?

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    You need to speed up the 24p about 4%, if you just trow it into 25p timeline it will either blend frames or hickup. Until now I did not do any work where sound would have mattered, short ads with music only. Simply reimported the final clip back to AE and set "interprete footage" to 25 FPS. Nobody noticed the 4%.. I can actually see the difference between 24H and 25 HBR, especially when it comes to grding the footage its obvious.

  • RamboRambo

    It's actually 4.096% speedup as 25p- 23.976p= 1.024 & 1.024 x 4 = 4.096. Conforming 24p to 25p reduces the running time so the clip is shorter.

  • MrEddMrEdd

    +1 @Meierhans

  • RamboRambo

    @Meierhans, >""I can actually see the difference between 24H and 25 HBR, especially when it comes to grding the footage its obvious.""

    Yep, that is one of the reasons i created this thread, to reveal what reasons people were choosing this longer workflow and if the benefits of 24p IQ were worth it over HBR. Hoping to hear more benefits.

  • FrameFrame

    I would film and edit completely in 24p, for Blu Ray-export. For PAL (i am living in Pal country), I would conform the final edit, exported as complete movie, in 25p and speed up the final mix. On a Mac, conforming works great with cinema tools and there is some software out tjere to speed up sound by 4% without changing the pitch. This I tested, but had no time yet to test 25fps patches against 24p patches.

  • nomadnomad

    Due to the way the GH2 handles it, the settings for 24p are still giving better results than 25p IQ wise. The speed up route preserves all this quality. So, if you have the time, do it!

  • RamboRambo

    That has been my findings also nomad, discounting the extra workflow, I have found no side effects of converting/conforming 24p to 25p and mixing with other real 25p footage, nor have the clients/ broadcasters when the footage is handed over. Even further conversion of the 24>25p and then to PAL 1080i for broadcast looks a s good as original 1080i footage .

    As PAL users, this seems to be the only choice we have if we want 24p quality out of the GH2 in a PAL format.

  • RamboRambo

    Thanks frame, good to hear others are using a siimilar workflow.

  • peaceonearthpeaceonearth

    that's the way we have Hollywood movies in PAL countries.

    @Meierhans @Frame So when do you conform to 25p? I am thinking about a workflow but I haven't found a solution yet. First step is to sync external audio, this has to be still 24fps. Do you stay in 24fps for the whole editing? If you conform to 25 fps audio gets higher and faster too. Do you apply a pitch correction? I found out that if you deal the whole editing with sound in 24fps it's very strange in 25fps. Maybe nobody else with notice but for me it is irritating.

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    I stay in 24p all the way until final render, then conform. If I had sound I would for sure pitch correct it.

  • peaceonearthpeaceonearth

    with sound you have a final render 24fps file, a conform 25fps and a soundpitch 25fps file. Usually I have to supply a DVD / BD. That means at the end of the day I have to get into 25fps PAL anyway. I think I will go on testing best HBR patch..

  • peaceonearthpeaceonearth

    @Frame there is some software out tjere to speed up sound by 4% without changing the pitch.

    would be great to know which one. Thanks in advance.

  • FrameFrame

    Cinema Tools lets you conform the final movie render/exported movie. Speeding up sound without changing the pitch is common today, maybe you´ll find some freeware plugin for your DAW. I use SampleManager, a standalone audio conversion tool vo the mac on the final mix. But it costs some money. 24P is onme standard on Blu ray, so no problem except you go to DVD

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Audiacity can do it afaik.

  • nomadnomad

    @peaceonearth BD is never 25p, only 24 or interlaced formats. Most good audio software can change speed without pitch change, like Soundtrack Pro, Nuendo (I'd have to check Audition).

  • peaceonearthpeaceonearth

    thanks for the explanation. As you see BD was not requested up to now. :-) The (new) plan could be to stay in 24p for reason of smoother performance on 60Hz computer screen and easy handle with BD. If someone wants to go for PAL TV or DVD he would have to pay extra for conforming. he he he ;-)

  • taktak

    I have found the same thing. I'm using the excellent Orion patch, but after converting HBR to prores it just does not look as good as the 24p did. Also I get quality warnings when importing into FCP. What a disappointment. Why does HBR look worse ?

  • dualrealitydualreality

    Pre buying a GH2, I've forever shot in 25p so I am new to the whole conforming frame rate thing. I have got my head round it though and it all makes sense and I don't see the audio pitch as that much of a big deal. However, here's an imaginary scenario I can't find a solution for. If you were to do a multi-cam shoot which had its audio recorded separately and each camera shot to a different standard (one 24p and the other 25p), am I right in thinking you'd be screwed?

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Mixing different FPS on a live situation will bring you indeed into big trouble. In best case you could intercut some short sequences, but it simply aint fun to have sound drifting that strong.

  • dualrealitydualreality

    Yeah, I thought as much. Thanks for the clarification

  • MeierhansMeierhans

    Now I finally have clips WITH sound that I need to convert from 23.976 to 25p. And even worse.. its a bunch of them. I got them rendered as Cineform AVI with uncompressed sound. AFX somehow hangs on exporting them conformed to 25 FPS with time stretched audio on a second layer.

    What are your workflows to do the conversion without recompressing the video?

    EDIT. Doing it with VirtualDub for now, attached the processing settings. Its actually doing a timestretch with pitch correction on sound. Works with VirtualDub Batcher.

    Convert23.976_to_25FPS_Timestretch.zip
    499B
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