world wants some answers.... https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/pressure-grows-china-independent-investigation-pandemic-s-origins

A conspiracy theory about Covid-19 escaping from China’s Wuhan Institute of Virology is the Trump administration’s Iraqi WMD. And the Washington Post’s Josh Rogin is playing the role of Judith Miller.

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/20/trump-media-chinese-lab-coronavirus-conspiracy/

@Vitaliy... your pov isn't backed by anything but just regurgitated simplistic political diatribe. You've obviously been heavily indoctrinated during your upbringing, and repeatedly answer with programmed answers, and probably only know the world from experiencing it on the internet. You're angry because you country went belly up, and like most individuals who are insecure, over compensate by thinking you're superior, hence your superior contrary to everyone elses common logic. And yes you tell everyone who disagrees with you about every topic, political or technical on this site, the same thing, Vitaliy. I've seen it for years. It's kinda of sad cause I'd bet it's a reflection. Maybe you play too much chess ? But I won't waste your time any longer...but infinitely more important to me, I won't waste mine.

@Lincoln11...see how the saker article takes 2 quotes from separate paragraphs and uses them to support each other as if they were in the same sentence...."it did not have any evidence about what was happening in Wuhan other than “online sources” and “rumors that were circulating."" Chinese knew already they were dealing with a highly contagious virus. Obviously to the taiwanese govt....online sources and rumors would be meant as accessing official sources online and thru medical channels, and rumors refers to intel. The sakers authors source is the tricontinental.org ....and their pov is the virus developed by cross species contagion....which is bull. Just looking at their "timeline", I'd ask what did china do between jan 20 and jan 23 , if at the latest date of the 20th, they were absolutely sure it was contagious ? Obviously they were sure far sooner.

An email Taiwanese authorities sent to the WHO on December 31.

This email has often been presented to constitute evidence that Taiwan had learned of and warned the WHO of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan, but that the WHO ignored. Turns out, the email did not make any such assertion. No one has been able to present an email from Taiwan to the WHO reporting any information about human-to-human transmission.

http://thesaker.is/could-taiwan-have-saved-the-world-from-the-coronavirus/

@Vitaliy....and if they aren't a small elite group of individuals....then they aren't doing shxt like releasing a virus. Your theory is based on this economic model of how theoretical ruling class might act, not on any historical facts. And the whole world believes solzenitzin as well...it's called consensual reality. Doesn't have anything to do with religion. You're the one who said communism was a " stateless thingy?...whatever that meant. And marx's idea attempting to connect hunter gatherers as some form of primitive communism analogy to his day is simplistic...because archaeology and anthropology were in their infancy. Tribalism is already a state. 19th century anthropology modeled itself on current biological principles...that societies are born, grow and die, like individuals, hindered by the racists angle to the theory of evolution. All of it obviously turned out to be untrue. And Marx's anthropological sources are no longer quoted in the 20th century...like lewis morgan. Wtf was he ? So all of marx's sources were flawed. Maybe you should start reading levi-strauss, paul radin, victor turner. Primitive societies turned out to be alot more complex than marx was capable of knowing at the time, which makes his analogy wishful thinking. And I see I'll get no names to fill that ruling class list.

@Vitaliy....1)"'Actually only this matters, as only "who had real reason, real gain" matters. All else is just nice space dust."" well we know the virus probably originated , or was first extracted from bat population in china. Many countries have had possession. It's who leaked the virus from a supposedly secure facility, accidental or otherwise, that's culpable. 2) the problem with marxism....and writings of it's adherents .... is they were writing that dated shxt before archaeology and anthropology taught us how states were really formed. A state is a organism first created before individual classes even existed. You guys think history starts with das capital. States were first formed to organize resources for survival at least 10,000 years ago. Even the example using monarchs shows how ethnocentric marxism is. 3) and was communism this stateless thingy when lenin was alive ? And wrong or not, I believe what solzenitzin wrote, contrary to some disinfo attempting to disprove otherwise. And you still haven't given me one name of this mythical ruling class. You might as well tell me aliens from andromeda are them. Otherwise they have names, birth certificates, countries of origin, etc. I think everybody on top wants to stay there, but they have others pulling them down the hill. It's all in our blood...to be slaves, or to be kings, and everything in between.

...doesn't matter which lab/country made/isolated the virus. Only matters where it was released. China had been working on gain of function of corona at wuhan. The virus is so contagious, leak source had to be near breakout i.e. wuhan lab.

Actually only this matters, as only "who had real reason, real gain" matters. All else is just nice space dust.

I think I understand totalitarianism fairly well. It was illustrated in stalin's soviet union, east germany and other satellites, mao's cultural revolution, cambodia's pol pot, even chile's pinochet. Communism , since it's already a centrally controlled style of govt has a headstart.

As we already figured out you have very vague understanding of Stalin time, as wel as Cultural Revolution. At least if we remove bunches of shit written and made up by present ruling class.

Communism , since it's already a centrally controlled style of govt has a headstart.

Same here, communism is actually stateless thingy. But not socialism.

The state is a product and a manifestation of the irreconcilability of class antagonisms. The state arises where, when and insofar as class antagonism objectively cannot be reconciled. And, conversely, the existence of the state proves that the class antagonisms are irreconcilable.

V.Lenin

Check The State and revolution, for starters.

Add to that, centrally controlled govts fall prey to dictators more easily, then you have totalitarian dictatorship. Otherwise it's just some orwellian formula, like present day china. Your opinion of some cohesive ruling class moving pieces around the board, is speculation. In this world there are ruling classes for every village, and no one has identified any elevators going up.

We also figured out that you do not understand that classes are :-) And that no dictator ever ruled by himself. Even monarchs who attampted to do something really important against wishes of ruling class instantly had some big issue (usually parted with his life).

Without dictators (democrats won't agree here :-) we can just watch Trump. No matter his inner thoughs and wishes is is forced to tell things he tell about China and do certain economics and politics things. Using his talents he can slightly delay or soften certain things, but he can't prevent them or delay for long time.

Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Bezos....google, paypal, twitter. Looks to me like these guys don't agree on much....except how to keep their money close.

Class is not about Gates or Bezos. If you remove them all instantly almost nothing will change and none of core interest of ruling class will change 100%.

If you believe the virus escaped , then they hid that information. The whole time they were telling people it came from the wetmarket. Shxt, they're still pushing that crap. If you believe the virus crossed over from animal species, then you're in the china camp.

I think it is being lab made, but not Chinese lab. And I really think that Chinese made extreme error by allowing Wuhan lab do the thing they did (due to EU and US assistance and with their help, I must say).

This error is not random, as such way opportunistic elite hoped to move slightly further into pure capitalism and hoped to gain good argument in trade war.

As I already said, I think timing of release had been selected according to information that US intelligence had from this lab, and as soon as they had been very close to getting real good results they could not wait (having their own virus and many strains will mean that it'll be full parity and strike is impossible).

So that you see now is full analogy of US nuclear strikes on Japan, that had been made only as warning (and big bluff, as US could not do bombs in any good amount of the time) and it worked. Without this US and allies will definitely be forced to leave Europe completely.

Sure capitalism kills. All types of govt's kill. The big question is which type offers the most resistance to totalitarianism ? Seems history so far shows communism offered the least resistance so far. Doesn't mean that'll always be true.

Your issue is using terms without understanding them fully. Here you are using term "totalitarism" that had been made up by western propaganda and it just actual bullshit that have no palce in any serious talk.

Let me explain, I just look at the ruling class and proletariat. It is US and some of their EU allies who actually badly needed destruction of small business and overall fast reduction of life level for their proletariat.

As they are now in situation with resource shortages, in situation where their technologican leadership evaporates and you can see it with naked eye.

We will definitely see this developing, where western countries will try to establish Chinese like control and China will go into opposite direction more and more as it'll gain power advantage.

Come on @Vitaliy...you change your responses after I've already responded.

I have edit history, I just added few points. Nothing that can hurt your response, and I did not see it while changing.

The real crime was hiding the release, hiding it's contagiousness, and allowing wuhan international travel.

I think we already had been past this?

You can't prove any "hiding the release", you can't state any " hiding it's contagiousness" - just look at western medical press and research shite level - they do all harm all by themselfs.

And if china did so well in it's response, then why is it hiding the origin. You can't believe any of their numbers, if they're hiding the why.

China has lot of capitalism, but they also have completely different system otherwise.

Thing that you, western press or your elites can't get is that such system works differently.

They can play with statistics a little (and they do), but all this western bullshit about constant statistics falsifications are completely dumb.

@kurth

One ex PV member I talked in chat expressed it as "we really need to bomb China, as it showed how inefficient and fucked up we are. This can't have any excuse.".

Hospitals get paid to treat corona patients. They get paid more because it's expensive and more difficult than , on average, normal patients, obviously.

Where I wrote things you try to reply here?

Do you actually understand that competition in medicine in this case kills? As it does not allow to share knowledge, people and supplies?

It has it's advantages as well as disadvantages. It's more creative.

Creative? For now all this "creativity" made is to kill lots of people and archieve one of most horrid results.

As well as talking to people like they are idiots.

That's why china copies everything we make...or steals it.

Read less right wing sites, it helps to keep mental health.

Amazon can't even sell n95 masks, much less speculate.

Amazon actually speculated on this wildly, and still provides third parties a way to sell masks or respirators, not officially, but they try to ignore listings for some time before any bans.

US states are separate states with their own laws. That prevents tyrants from taking control....like in alot of places we know!

And it's known china was buying up ppe in december and early january before hospitals responded. And not only the US , but all of the americas medical systems were unprepared.

Any real documents that China bough supplies in December in any unusual amount? As in early January it had been fully public.

Why US system had been unprepared and why leading big companies instead speculated on market making special deep dive where they can get not only tens of billions of profits from trading, but also new trillions of stimulus? Don't you think they must be made responsible?

@kurth

No. You just don't have to read, as it is too painful, so better just ignore.

In US you have competition of hospitals, lot of hospitals aim to maximize income instead of helping people, inside medical community it is extreme non transparency as each want to get maximal money and do not tell anything to competition (of cousrse it is lot of exclusions, but in general it is such). One private hospitals company will never help another company even if it'll be lot of people who die nearby.

In US you have people and firms (including Amazon) who speculate reselling masks and respirtators, it is almost impossible to buy one for cheap and fast. In US you have lot of authorities who tell you not to wear masks, and you have lots and lots of people without any masks (contrary to China).

In US states fight with each other, instead of help. Instead of real production and real scientific talk in US we have big companies fighting for funding, contracts and just channeling money in Asia, frequently now even not checking any quality.

In US actually no owner cares about medics, almost no one had any planned supply of proper protection equipment. So where hospital had money and could catch them it had been more or less good - all other just had been forced to catch virus and lot of them died.

Some sense of normal, with precautions.