Panasonic AG-AC90 topic and comparison with GH2, video test

tommy

Whole test with Lens 14-140mm, smallest F, shutter 50, ISO 3200. Hack Driftwood Cluster 6, with ISO maximum disabled, because I often want automatic ISO, and doing so it would (in dark situations) go all the way up to 12.000 and give too much noise (at least in my case it is horrible). I have tried a 6mm CCTV Cmount lens (as seen online), but this sucks as well. I am considering to buy the Pancake 20 mm 1.7 now, but I think people don't like it too much (and would suggest the tooo expensive Nokton 0.95).

Like I wrote I have the GH2 quite a while, but being used to 'normal' / ENG cameras I just can not get used to film with a photo camera. Perhaps if you could please answer the 2 questions (from my 2nd post on 22nd) it would make it already more easy: (or where can I find it online)

EDIT: Sept 22: Another example and the two things that bother me most about the GH2 (except having no XLRs)

GH2 needs fixed shutter speed (50/ 100). If it is set on Shutter priority, the aperture goes up and down in steps and also making noise. The steps are not fluent. I have read people thought the camera was damaged, but many of us have this issue, why? an how to solve it?
So you need to fix the Aperture (What I would prefer as well) This is only possible in (movie) manual priority mode, right? But in the manual mode you also have to set the ISO manual. (I don't see an auto iso option in this mode). This Sucks SO hard! So for many shooting situations ( movement and if you want to be able to be fast), this actually makes the GH2 useless in Shutter mode, and Manual mode, so which mode is left???

tommy

@zigizigi

Rolling shutter compare

To be honest the rolling shutter of the GH2 did not bother me much before (what about you?) and I think this is the same for the AC90. I did do extreme pan (right-left) movements, but it is hard to compare as I think in some shots the AC90 was perhaps moving faster (or was zoomed in more or perhaps less as the GH2). So it is hard to say. Below some stills of 'approximately' same movements / zoom . Is this helpfull?

peternap

@Tommy Interesting thread and it shows you're thinking. I love my GH2's and use them, but for a big part of my Docs had been using an XA10 and a G10. I was thinking about and even ordered an AF100 when Onionbrain pushed me back into reality.

I ended up with the AC160 which I wouldn't be without now. I sold the XA10, kept the G10 and both GH2's....(and a couple of older cameras) and use them all.

Depending on what kind of Doc's you do you may want to hang on to the GH2 also. Yesterday I shot a sexual awareness march and used the two GH2's, one with a wide angle and one with the 14-140...and an HD2 on my helmet. I was able to leapfrog the group, get the line with the GoPro on the way, set up the 7.5 and 14-140 on tripods before the line got to me and get different angles each time. I kept this up for two hours.

I couldn't have done that with my 160 alone.

tommy

@peternap

Although many things of the AC90 are SUCH a relief compared to the GH2 (xlr, handling, autofunctions, ois, and so on) the biggest problem is the plastic (video) image and lack of DOF. Especially because my most important thing is:

Independent creative documentaries for festivals/ theaters. I have an art background and try to 'tell' the story in a cinematic / visual style, with as little talking heads as possible. Because the lack of budget I have to do much myself.

You write " Interesting thread and it shows you're thinking" I have been reading for months, and I am getting so fckng frustrated. It used to be simple: The big brands had 2 cameras between €3000 -€5000 and they were good. Long time ago I decided to go for Panasonic, and sort of want to stick with them. The large sensors are taking over, but is there a new standard easy to handle video camera with large sensor that is good and will not be outdated in a few years ? Like you I was considering the AF100, but it is a lot of money for only XLR audio (as the rest is supposed to be better on the GH2).

You write you have the AC160, but it is 3 times more expensive. (I know the specs differences but) Do you think it is much better?
(See post on 12.43 : a bit bigger sensor, but that will not be enough for more DOF? I suppose the sensor technology of the AC90 is also more up to date as all the other models in this range (?) I did not test the AC130, but I think the OIS and perhaps autofocus etc is better on the AC90. What do you think?

Do you perhaps know the answers of my issues with the GH2 see questions 2.07 pm ? (aperture steps, and auto iso?)

Mimirsan

@Tommy Thanks! Actually I am pretty interested in the AC90 as i am also leaning away from Dslr for video's since using the VG20 I really dont want to go back to a GH2 and the formfactor. My Budget is £1500

Things im not so sure about is the plasticky look the AC90 gives and how decent the evf is. As for DOF im not too bothered about it.

I had a TM700 a few years back and the evf was horrible. It looks to have none of that alaising and seems to do pretty well in lowlight conditions.

I was looking at the XA10 but have seen some footage that doesnt convince me.

If I find a UK supplier that do good returns service (if im unhappy with it) then I may give it a try.

tommy

@Mimirsan Maybe the plastic look is a bit exaggerated too much here (judge for yourself in the video). Like I wrote I think many things can be in camera adjusted. I also often do 'after effects' , and think I can get rid of the 'flat video' as the image has quite a good dynamic range, and sharpness.

I normally don't buy a new released camera before it has good reviews. But as there aren't any and I need a camera soon (and this one seems very suitable), I would love to hear some other opinions. So please buy it ;-) !

Someone commented the video on YouTube, that it is already second hand available in the UK. I don't know how, and why, but I did send them an email.

peternap

@tommy I haven't used the 90 so I really don't know if the 160 is "Better". Better is always relative anyway. I've been happy with the autofocus. Given enough light, it's fast and precise, low light it hunts. I manual focus most of the time though.

I can't say about the stepping problem in the GH2 either. Again, it's pretty much all manual operation with me.

A lot of what I buy is based on the recommendations of more experienced people who's opinion I respect. I sent you a PM about that.

The biggest issue I see with your decision is that you are artistic. I'm not....but the GH2 seems to be better at cinematic video.

Mimirsan

@Tommy I saw the Ebay sale...looked dubious and overpriced to be honest. Currently there are two decent retailers

http://www.3dbroadcastsales.com/products/Panasonic-AG-AC90-Entry-Level-3MOS-Full-HD-AVCCAM-Camcorder.html

and

http://www.proav.co.uk/Panasonic-AG-AC90-AVCCAM-Camera-Recorder/p31671.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=GoogleShopping&utm_campaign=googlebase

goanna

@tommy

I think you've raised the bar when it comes to side-by-side comparison thread writing & illustration. Thanks.

Yes, DSLRs are fiddly. There must be a way to trim down the klutz-factor for an event shoot, but I've yet to find one. I dread the moment I know I've got to show up with my DSLR somewhere and get in the way of my ENG ex-collleagues.

LPowell

@tommy

Whole test with Lens 14-140mm, smallest F, shutter 50, ISO 3200

I'm surprised the GH2 looked as good as it did in your YouTube video. I never take this camera above ISO 1600. Beyond that ISO level, the noise and lack of dynamic range are worse than I want to hassle with.

The GH2 works well as an all-manual video camera. Most shooters set shutter speed to 1/50 PAL, or 1/60 NTSC to produce good motion blur and avoid fluorescent strobing. ISO should be set as low as you can without underexposing the sensor. Aperture should ideally be set for the depth of field you want.

For shooting video in auto-ISO mode, I use a Nikon D5100, which has a usable ISO range from 100-6400. This camera takes a while to get used to as it doesn't have manual settings in video mode. For low-light shooting, however, its superior dynamic range and ISO performance make it a better choice than the GH2.

tommy

@LPowell Thanks! I hope you are willing to answer some questions (or tell me where I can find the answers):

I also use shutter 50 with 720 50P, you? (Because I did read the shutter speed should be twice the frame rate which means that at 720 50P and a shutter of 100 you are losing again much light.)
Maximum ISO 1600 (so you also don't apply the full range ISO hack)? (as it only gives much noise above 3200
I tested Flowmotion but haven't used it because the bitrate is a bit too high for me (and many of my cards). I asked before (but didn't get the answer yet ;-) if I can lower the bitrate (to 45 MB/s) without any problems or you would not suggest to do that?

Yesterday I ordered the 20 mm Pancake lens, I hope it will make a big different in light (as the 6mm 1.4 cctv c-mount lens did not give good image results).

As so many things are more easy with a camera like the AC90 I am still considering it (combined with the GH2). The video is a bit flat, but I suppose I could get rid of that in post (as the image is sharp, the dynamic range seems quite okay (and I think many things can improve with in camera settings)

Do you have any ideas why the AC90 tiny (1/4.7) sensor did quite well (in low light) ? Is (the BSI?) better technology? Instead of the Micro 4/3 it does have 3 sensors that probably make the different as well (mostly in color) (and the F 1.5) Because if I am correct the GH2 has 17,779,972 effective pixels compared to only 2,190,000 from the AC90?
I uploaded some original ACHD files, but I think not many people here (as most are large sensor lovers ;-) are willing to 'check' the I/P/B frames, peaking, GOP, dynamic range. Is it possible for me to check this (what program can I use)?

Sorry for my long posts

LPowell

@tommy

Shutter speed determines the amount of motion blur in a video, independently of the frame rate. I like the amount of motion blur produced by a shutter speed of 1/40 - 1/60 sec. The "180-degree rule" for shutter speed was developed for use with the mechanical shutters in motion picture film cameras. The electronic shutter in a digital video camera works on entirely different principles that do not comply with the assumptions that rule was originally based on.

The GH2 records video at 8-bit resolution and its sensor's dynamic range at ISO 1600 is about 8-stops. When you push ISO higher than that, you start to lose resolution and the noise level increases.

Flow Motion v2 works at a peak bitrate of 100Mbps in 24H, HBR, FSH, and SH video modes. If you want to conserve SD card space or insure 4GB file-spanning on cards rated less than 95MB/sec, use FM2's 60Mbps 24L, FH, or H video modes. The 60Mbps video modes work the same as the 100Mbps modes, producing excellent motion picture quality with just a notch more compression.

I'm not familiar with the AC90 or its predecessors, but I'd be happy to examine its AVCHD files.

tommy

@LPowell Thanks and many thanks for "I'be happy to examine the AVCHD files." That's GREAT! It doesn't need to be a thorough test, but I am really curious what you can tell about it ( Good/ bad DR,GOP,IPB) Some days ago I already uploaded two shots that can be downloaded untill October 5th

http://wtrns.fr/Zw4bY_aoz17Ohe

These are two indoor lowlight 'bad' shots, but I don't know what you would need for testing. If you need something else/ static /normal/ longer shots please let me know, I will send them. And like I said, I should have changed the in camera settings, because it was standard to bright (maybe the Knee setting) THANKS again I really appreciate it!

peternap

@tommy I'll pass on advice from Onionbrain, who spent a lot of time with these cameras. Learn the controls then learn the setting combinations.

I'll add....spend a good deal of time playing with the WB, which can be tricky (On my 160 at least). If your camera has focus assist, you should try the viewfinder in B&W to make the outlines stand out better, and use the LCD to watch the colors and waveform.

tommy

Maybe another camera solution for me : The new NEX EA50 a NEX 5N in an ENG body. I didn't see any topic here yet . Not worth talking about or should i start a topic?

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@tommy

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/4275/sony-nex-camcorder-nex-ea50eh-#Item_13

Mimirsan

@Tommy The Nex EA50 will most likely have moire and alaising issues but would be beneficial for portrait and lowlight work. I really do like the look of the AG AC90 and will look out for more footage before I decide to get one. I do like that there is no sign of alaising in the videos. I downloaded the raw videos from vimeo and had a play with grading and it seems to grade quite nicely. Not much artifacting from the 24mb files either which is nice to see. Is it constant f1.5 lens? Seems it would cost more if it was. Some guy seems to love it and it apparently has clean 4.2.2? AC90 with a external recorder might be a great combo.

tommy

@Vitaliy_Kiselev Thx!
I searched this website for: NEX-EA50 (and similar) but didn't find it. I hope they solved the aliasing/ moiré of the NEX 5 in this NEX EA50 and hope there will be some good reviews soon.

tommy

@Mimirsan I posted the message above to Vitaly before I read yours. (I didn't refresh the browser) I am afraid you are right about moiré with the EA50. Yesterday I contacted Sony (with some questions about this camera) and I still hope they fixed the moire (for a camera that is 6 times more expansive than a NEX5)

Besides the moire, I think there are more downsides compared with the AC90, OIS, easy handling, same batteries as I already have, etc . And it is not a Panasonic (that often are better in lowlight, and more film like image)

So twice the amount of money for a bigger sensor, but probably more other downsides.

Good to hear your reaction about the AC90 raw videos! Let us hope @LPowell and others will have the time to download the files as well to get some more info about the files as well. If he / you or others want some more raw footage for testing, I can send some.

At least we are still considering the AC90! (so Vitaly don't close the topic yet ;-) Maybe I just need to get used to film with the AC90 in one hand and keep the GH2 in the pocket ;-)

mozes

@tommy, just wait some more. i expect that the gh3 fills that gap, now it have AF in videomode

Mimirsan

@tommy If you can upload more footage that would be great to see :-D

@Mozes You are aware that the GH2 (and other mirroless cameras) has decent AF in video mode?

mozes

@Mimirsan yes, but its not that great....
ps, i mean continue auto focus .............

tommy

@mozes 4.23PM You know I started this post because of the GH3 hype, right ?
I like the GH2 but the GH3 still isn't a video camera : XLR, holding, ois, zoom, so I don't expect it to fulfill my needs.

@mimirsan Some more AG-AC90 shots. Mostly issue cases : shaky, lowlight, ois , too bright shots.( I hope you don't mind? Otherwise I can upload some normal shots as well ;-)) Probably because much is in the auto mode (if I remember correctly). Besides that all shots are too highlighted like I mentioned (probably because in camera settings, as knee, ped, auto iris settings?)

Some explanation 01-AC90-low light-auto-shake I wasn't trying to hold it steady, but you can see some 'shaky/ flickering' perhaps low light OIS issues in auto, shutter speed was set on 50, so it can not be that.

02-AC-90-Low light auto-tilt Maybe same as above

03-AC90-Autofocus-test. Fast and correct auto focus . Only a bit too bright/ highlighted

04-Shaky too bright: Real rough camera handling in auto mode filming in the sun. Interesting what happened in bright light: the black turned gray. (and in the end becomes black again) Perhaps the lack of a ND (and it couldn't get darker? It also didn't have an UV filter

05- Indoor lowlight-grain-shaky pan: Same as before, but with more movement. Don't remember the settings, but I think much auto so probably 30 DB

000067-Low-light-ois problem: This is an interesting case: I was just freaking and the shot was made after shot 1 and 2 (so sun was almost set). It has nice DOF, but pay attention to the background. It is dithering and shaking a lot. Perhaps an issue of the 5 axes OIS in low light? or in combination with zoom, movement, and lowlight (Not that I am planning to do that a lot).

Still hope someone will examine the files (Good/ bad DR,GOP,IPB) thoroughly. Download available untill: October 10th

http://wtrns.fr/NL5gcln23X9WRkA

peternap

Hopefully the camera came with Barry what's his name's book. Despite his ego, it is a very concise explanation of the settings.

If the 90 has ND filters, use them any time you're outdoors. Those little sensors love an open iris.

tommy

@peternap No ND's in the AC90 and indeed many shots are too bright/ highlighted. I didn't test it, but don't you think this can adjusted in the camera settings? Because in the menu there are many options for: Knee, Ped and also the autoiris level can be set -10 till +10.

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