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Destiny of m43 mount cameras, how soon production will stop
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  • Hopefully M4/3 will continue as it is a good compromise between bulk and portability whilst still offering good quality stills and great quality video performance. I've never understood the desire for shallow DOF in video as its not the way humans see the world so can look very odd for anything other than cutaway shots (Americans call this B Roll). Also although good low light performance is desirable, super low light shots in the main look horrible as there is no real depth to the image without the use of proper lighting.

  • @all: I agree that u43 will continue to be viable. As has been said, u43 + FF are distinctly different with very different strengths. @brudney: Not everyone buys a FF for 'paper thin' DOF or to supposedly improve their photography. I wound up buying a used Nikon D750 and a used 70-200 f2.8 lens in order to get photos of my daughter's swim meets. The swim meets are often held in indoor, poorly lit pools, and I just could not get satisfactory pictures with my u43 gear (I have both f2.8 zooms, but, with the u43 sensor and the need for fast shutter speeds to freeze motion, the images were just too noisy). I rented several different combinations of APS-C and FF cameras before deciding on Nikon FF and saving enough $$ to get the used Nikon gear. I still mainly shoot u43 for outdoors because I have built up more lenses over the years, and it is a lot easier to carry. But, for swim meets: it has to be FF so I can use shutter speeds of 1/1000 and still get results that are not 'too noisy'. So...I am an example of someone who has both u43 and FF, but needed the FF for one specific reason: low light indoor sports. I doubt that I will get the Panasonic FF cams since I now have several Nikkor FF lenses so it makes more sense for me to eventually get the Z6 (after it has been around for a while and can be bought used). One nice thing about Nikon gear is that there are always opportunities to pick up fine gear at a good price. My used 70-200 f2.8 G VR II lens was pretty cheap, because a new Nikkor 70-200 f2.8 E lens came out, so gear freaks unloaded their 'old', 'obsolete' 70-200's for the newer version. :-)

  • Cool, that was clearly an oversimplification on my side :) Obviously there are people who buy gear when they know they need it and will make proper use of it and you're one of them.

  • Thing with m43 is volume.

    With any modern camera you need big volume just to make LSI.

    Biggest issue Panasonic has now is they can't finance development from money they made selling compacts. And all Panasonic compacts had same LSI that their top cameras had, just with fewer RAM/ROM and sometimes clocked slower.

  • Azo, wow talking about getting your panties in a bunch.. first of all, didn't really say anything uncivil. The closest I got was that I'm damn tired of hearing predictions. Not just from you obviously, and I didn't call you a moron or anything. You started out by basically calling m43 a lemon, then proceeded to say "people don't like to invest in a system that fades away". Blatantly untrue statement!

    M43 has the biggest variety of mirrorless cameras and lenses. If you want to go small, which a lot of people do, there's equipment for that. If you want lowlight capability or shallow DoF there are lenses for that.(or gh5s for lowlight) If you want to go to Antarctica, there's equipment that can handle that. Olympus and Panasonic has the best Ibis in the business, and combined with fast native lenses or speedboosted lenses, there is very little that cannot be achieved on m43, unless you happen to be a pro that needs 50MP plus resolution on moving objects.There are also 3rd party companies doing various cameras and lenses. It is not a dying format at all.

    The only threat is the constant bashing and tricking people into thinking it is somewhat inferior. The fact of the matter is that most of us on this forum are gearheads to a much larger degree than talented photographers or videographers. The good ones in those fields can use m43 without issues, while most of us are looking for the next thing to take a slightly better picture, to compensate for lack of skill, artistry etc.

    By all means, there are people that can benefit from larger sensors in some situations, and maybe I will get a MF format camera as well, but I wouldn't let go of my day to day m43 arsenal that does most everything great.

    In any case, don't be one of those people that help spread misconceptions about this format (and I'm not just referring to you Azo). Thanks.

  • Jjj_ri_usa Agreed, there ARE some specific scenarios where it makes more sense to go FF, even if you could have gotten close with that lens on a speedboosted for instance (EF version to get af). Sounds like you found a solution that works for you, and as you hinted at, m43 has other strengths, so it is just a different alternative overall, not an inferior one.

  • Vitaliy, if APS-C keeps getting developed, there is nothing stopping manufacturers from using those in say the GH5 series and other larger m43 cameras. One could use it to allow multi aspect, and for lenses with larger circles almost entire sensor could be used. Besides, I bough a CELLPHONE with 42MP in 2013! No reason why we can't squeeze more out of aps-c/m43.

  • @tosvus

    I am talking about LSI, for now.

    As for sensors - usually modern APS-C sensors just lack necessary models (with m43 proper crop and such).

  • The LSI seems fine on the upper end though? It can process 6K photo mode, 4K60P etc. I would think the LSI could handle cropping image from a bit larger sensor. (Like JVC) Are you saying it is hard to make really cheap models?

    Surely BM, Yi, DJI etc don't use same LSI as Panasonic or Olympus?

  • @tosvus

    Cost of making LSI is rising exponentially. And sales are mostly dropping (if you count m43+compacts).

  • Sorry but can you explain why cost is increasing exponentially? Material costs? In any case, compacts will for sure struggle - phones made sure of that. M43 or aps-c are less direct competitors to phones though.

  • @tovrus

    Answer is very complex here :-)

    https://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/15422/semicinductors-industry-has-serious-issues-stop-will-follow/p1

    As for "compact will struggle". Never underestimate mass media that also help a little. Compact owners are very bad for ruling class. In case of smartphone it is just few key presses to check all your current shots and all old that are in cloud (it is enabled by default usually). With all GPS and such things in them. Compacts are shitty as most of their photos are offline.

    People at big sites know perfectly - promoting smartphones is good, telling that all compacts are inferior and shitty - will be also praised.

  • Vitaliy, your click bait is working really well :-P

  • Yes, that makes sense, though I'm not the most paranoid except for certain countries, I'm sure at the very least they know it's useful for legal investigations. Then there is the whole convenience thing. I love bigger cameras, and have a lx100 for more normal situations, but in the end, the thing is, the cell phone is always with me, and I do take pics and videos with that, so I always prioritize the camera quality on the phone. Most people forego the compacts altogether of course.

    In terms of LSI, maybe I'm not forward thinking enough(but in my defense I'm at least a 4K nut!) - i just don't see a need for much improvement for a long time. As long as it can keep up with some improvement in resolution and focusing for video, for m43, there is very little else I or most m43 owners need out of those cameras.

  • @tosvus

    Forget about "legal investigations". Whole purpose, design and such of modern phone is being able to find and track any "wrong" person, and who is "wrong" is up to algorithms to decide. It is all same in banks or such. As soon as algorithms that will automatically use all information it could gather will decide that you are "not fit" - you are done. Human already barely can understand that can cause this decision and soon they just wont' care. It'll belike Paypal or Youtube - no one sane to appeal to.

    Images at smartphone are extremely important. As it is standard now to get GPS, all faces identified and now also places identification becomes standard. Try to go with wife of your friend into abandoned house during work time - and you are done.

  • "YN43 camera"?? Sounds like Yongnuo is going to make the MFT version of a Sony QX1?

    Edit: https://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/19677/yongnuo-yn43-new-upcoming-m43-camera-with-4k-video/p1

    Ahhhhh..... I see now! I somehow forgot about that news, I guess because I was so very busy back in May with a million other things going on. Is it still the weird MFT sensor with EF mount?!

    M43 has the biggest variety of mirrorless cameras and lenses. If you want to go small, which a lot of people do, there's equipment for that. If you want lowlight capability or shallow DoF there are lenses for that.(or gh5s for lowlight) If you want to go to Antarctica, there's equipment that can handle that. Olympus and Panasonic has the best Ibis in the business, and combined with fast native lenses or speedboosted lenses, there is very little that cannot be achieved on m43, unless you happen to be a pro that needs 50MP plus resolution on moving objects.There are also 3rd party companies doing various cameras and lenses. It is not a dying format at all.

    The only threat is the constant bashing and tricking people into thinking it is somewhat inferior. The fact of the matter is that most of us on this forum are gearheads to a much larger degree than talented photographers or videographers. The good ones in those fields can use m43 without issues, while most of us are looking for the next thing to take a slightly better picture, to compensate for lack of skill, artistry etc.

    Nailed it.

  • @IronFilm

    Seems so.

    As in capitalism getting normal clear m43 mount specs is close to impossible.

    Actually Panasonic intentionally uses crippled and non standard commands in many lenses to make life of people making adapters and such much worse.

  • @IronFilm not sure if the YN camera was in reference to the ones I mentioned, but I really meant the YI M1 (check Amazon). Kodak also has a PixPro S1, both with native m43 mount. BlackMagic, JVC, and DJI also make cameras with native m43 mount + the new ZCam, so not sure what Vitaliy is talking about.

  • The market is relatively small for all of BM, JVC, Z-Cam, Yi, and Kodak. DJI's market is a little bigger, but still probably not enough to save the system. If Panasonic and Olympus both pull out, the mount probably has a few years left, at most.

  • Couldn't you apply all the same reasoning to the full frame mount systems? You aren't seriously claiming that expensive cameras for "professionals" sell in higher volumes are you?

  • @kinvermark

    Well, expensive cameras sell not in very big volume. Yet. As top percentiles level of living differs more and more from other crowd - companies try to sell them new cameras and it more or less works. Lot of recent marketing changes, orientation on all this "ambassadors" - this all going from it.

    Idea of camera companies is same as of all present capitalism - somehow stop the time and progress. But as you can't really stop both - at least try to slow it down by throwing lot of expensive and incompatible stuff. Progress require universal standard mounts and protocols, progress requires standard realtime OS and more hefty OS on top of it. Lot of camera design choices are made because Japanese are good at making such stuff, and they know if they will go into more modern design approach - it will give new companies good hints, and all market can be stolen from them in few years.

  • OK, I think I follow the thesis. So really, both (all DSLR DSLM?) formats are eventually doomed to failure by being technologically & economically surpassed by devices that can be more efficiently manufactured.

    In the long term this is very likely true, but the question is "how long will it take?" And does the "extreme" price & tech of full frame really give more time (for users) once you allow for the fact that there will be a ramp up period for lenses, etc.

    Given that, I would be very reluctant to chuck money at L mount.

  • Just get a Polaroid and be done with it. Then the big bad wolves can't track you either ;)

  • Olympus is committed to the Micro Four Thirds system because it gives photographers a smaller, lightweight alternative to full-frame cameras. That was the message from the head of the company’s imaging business, Shigemi Sugimoto, when I spoke to him in an exclusive interview at Photokina.

    According to Sugimoto, Olympus is aware that its users want more high-quality telephoto lenses. It’s an area that the company wants to ‘improve and grow’. So it looks like we can expect some new long lenses in the near future.

  • One thing I noticed is that in our Tamron interview they said that "it is STILL many" photographers who use this system, but they actually do not have resources now to develop any m43 new lenses.