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Why not increase shutter speed? Why use NDs? (Seriously)
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  • this thread should keep going as it is very entertaining :-)

    Yes, this thread also serves a very good purpose. It distracts the pseudo-scientists who won't listen to 120 years of photography physics. Thankfully, they are easily distracted as well :-)

    "Gambling is a tax imposed on people who don't understand mathematics." (Dr Karl)

  • Ahahahah, thank you so much, I'm in tears just from the title :-)

  • I understand the neccessity of the 180 degree rule in film and also the 90 or 45 degree as high speed shutter to get a strobe or sharp effect in the pictures. But for ordinary videos, there is no technical neccessity for the 180 degree angle any more. So when I film with 50p and have a 180 degree shutter, i film with a 100th of a second. Bur I loose the information of half of the time, the other not exposed 100th of a second.

    My question is: Why not exposing with a 50th of a second, so that you have the full information for example of a movement from beginning to end of the exposure?

    I understand that one would not do that when filming with 24p or 25p, for it would probably blur too much.

    But when filming with 50p? Why not exposing with 50th?

  • In my view, shutter angle is a meaningful concept only when you actually have a rotating shutter. With the rolling shutter of a DSLR, using a 1/48 sec shutter speed doesn't come close to duplicating the visual effect of a physically rotating shutter. The sharp onset of an electronic shutter creates temporal aliasing that would be smoothed out with a rotating shutter. The result is a harsher digital judder than you see in film camera footage.

    In practice, DSLR shutter speed is significant in determining the amount of motion blur and in cases of undesirable stobing effects with AC-powered lighting. Otherwise, it's just another factor in the exposure equation.

  • I admit, that high shutter speeds can totally ruin footage with fast motion. But sometimes high shutter speeds even look better to my eyes, for example rain, snow, water drops. In wide angle shots without fast motion i also use faster shutter speeds without any problems. It looks better than the picture i get with my soft Nd filters. By the way, digital cameras will never look like film, but could look as good as film did. Digital cameras do have their own goodies such as sharpness and low light capabilities. I alway loved super8, but i can't say it looked better, it just looked different. Both types do please my eyes in a different way. I never liked the look of tape video of the 90ies though. All in all 1/48th shutter speeds doesn't create a film look or even emulate it, but fast shutter speeds can make your footage unusable, because moving objects jitter. This looks pretty ugly.

  • @lpowell

    Thats exactly what itches me! The only way we can refer to film nomenculature in digital DSLR world is if we are refering to "film like" effect, because the nature of the beasts is completely different. Therefore, rolling shutter "effect" might have completely different look and effect on film or in digital and can be produced differently. In that sense, there are no right or wrong ways to use them (religiously speaking) because film world did so succesfully, but only in a sense that produces "the look that is close enough to LIKE FILM rolling shuuter"...

    Question: What shutter angle/shutter speed on GH4, or on any other regular DSLR /mirrorless video cameras, do you suggest, when shooting paning landscape shots and in general camera movement shots so that they look smooth "pleasant and filmic" like they sre shot on film camera? Once I heard suggestion that panning shot should be shot on 25fps so that when you convert them to 24fps they look good?!?!

  • @Brig For smooth landscape panning on the internet or NTSC, I'd shoot at 60fps with a 1/60 sec shutter. For PAL regions, I'd use 50fps with a 1/50 sec shutter.

  • Thank you 50p with 1/50 shutter.

  • This thread is getting so many views it's sort of doing a Trump-Like effect where nonsense rules but there are also good lessons to be learned.

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  • So I finally got around to drilling some holes in my Leicas. Here's a test shot-

    Screen Shot 2016-05-05 at 10.22.23 am.png
    516 x 282 - 20K
  • Who's the low light king now!

  • @Lpowell

    Would that rule apply even if the rest of the movie is shot on 24fps?

    What do I need to do if I have a sound that I need to use from the same shot, or if pan is a shot of following a person who's talking?

    How do I convert 50fps to 24fps without visual distractions and jumps and jitters (I didnt know you can pull down 26 frames without any consequences?). Or you are saying that I have to live with slow down shot in that case (which basicly means that the camera movement can not include activity in a frame that will betray what speed camera was shooting on and dispearsing illusion of a story?).

    I mean if digital video didnt figure out itself to the point that the same camera move on digital camera is the same like the one shot on film, then indeed, we should start from the basis and from the begining! So proper shuuter sped/angle discussion is very very needed...

    I know that Jackie Chan and action fight scenes or car chases are sometimes shot on less then 24fps (20 and 18fps respectively) for safety reasons, but I am yet yo hear that John Ford was shooting John Wayne or Sergio Leone was shooting Clint Eastwood how their ride across the prairies in 50fps because in 24fps camera move on film looks too jittery..

  • @Brig Smooth panning's not enough? You want to mix footage shot at different frame rates as well? If you're going with 50fps for PAL compatibility, why not shoot the rest of your footage at 25fps and upconvert it to 50p (or 50i for broadcast). It's not like anyone will notice the difference between that and 24fps.

  • I want smooth panning that looks like is shot in conventional 24fps. Where cars and people move like they do in real like and not faster nor slower then natural.

    Like, I never look at FISTFULL OF DOLLARS characters riding to Horisom thinking "gee something borhers me with this shot, some jitter with camera move or something"...

    I am not shooting for broardcast. I am shooting documentary footage in 24fps that I intend to screen theatricly. I need film like "illusion" of moving pictures yet, I can not afford film tech and workflow (nor it would make sense for this particular project) to be shot on film).

    Correct me if I am wrong but choosing 24fps and CINE instead of 25fps and PAL on certain DSLRs (I believe GH4 is one of them) offers slightly better Mb per second, better light sensitivity (minor bit still better) and especialy better card/battery capacity...

    I mean I might swich to 25/PAL at the end, I am not zealotist, but only because it seems that we are coming to conclusions that using film referrences in digital world is just bunch of wrong misconceptions and beeessssss and that funny enoufh, in order to mimic film 24fps image illusion I am better of using TV broadcast PAL settings when shooting :)

  • @Brig Sorry, I mistook AKED's reply above, and thought you'd chosen to shoot 50fps, 1/50 sec shutter for smooth panning. If you're committed to 24fps for theatrical projection, I'd recommend shooting at 120fps for smooth panning, at 1/125 sec shutter speed. Since 120 is evenly divisible by 24, you can blend frames synchronously to produce a smoothly flowing 24fps pan.

  • In my experience smooth panning has more to do with composition and visual content. In a forest with a lot of vertical elements (tree trunks), the pan is not smooth, regardless the framerate and shutter speed. But a long vista, with rolling hills and horse riders has a totally different effect to the eye and to the brain.

  • Waking this topic up after over a year with no action...

    I have followed Brandon Li's work for a few years now, Most of you will have heard of him and seen his amazing videos on vimeo and youtube. I think his videos look amazing and I a pretty sure he does not follow the 180 rule and does not use nd filters. I know this by the look of his work and comments he has made on his videos...

    Here is one example of his work

    based on this surely he is a good example of someone who is successfully and consistantly making high quality work without sticking to the 180 rule?

  • He is first and foremost about getting the shot, as everyone should be trained/focused on that goal. That said, shooting Slog 2/3 on Sony bodies, which have great auto ISO and great AF, one can concentrate on the getting the shot/the best available light, operating the gimbal, dealing with the public, etc.

    In general @ 24P shooting slightly above or below 1/50 is not that noticeable and is often done to avoid issues with monitor flicker and fluorescent flicker (at least in 60 Hz countries).

    On a Sony body with auto ISO turned on, one can easily shoot using the 180 degree rule with no ND at night (obviously) and only a variable ND in the daytime.

    His edits are very dynamic, shots are not long enough on screen to notice if the bokeh is scratchy from that vari-ND and the newer generation Vari-NDs seem to have found a way to avoid the scratchy look (to my amazement).

    According to his "kit" page, he likes using an ND9 and a polarizer:

    He has published a few video on how he works as well. Maybe there's more info on his shutter decisions in one of his videos.

  • He briefly talks about not raising his shutter speed "too high" at 7:05 here:

    and using that ND filter... a ND .8 or .9 is only 1/3rd of a stop difference.

    (@shain) me: (face-plant) -why did I start to reply to this?