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GH4 with an external recorder vs Blackmagic for greenscreen?
  • Hi I just wondered what your thoughts were as regards GH4 with external recorders like Atomos v Blackmagic cameras for green screen. Would it be as effective at keying? One other possibly very naive question - is there any advantage in using sharper lenses for greenscreen? The Panasonic 12-35mm for example? Thanks a lot.

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  • A strict f8 is not needed as long as your subject gets full focus on all edges. Many modern fast lenses have their sweet spot already at f5.6, some even at f4.

    And short exposure times for fast moving objects are critical, yes. Think martial arts or the like. You can add motion blur with RSMB in post and it even helps with image integration.

    To avoid green spill, your studio should ideally be black on all other walls. If it is not (or not even a studio), use large, painted black styro plates or the like on all light areas around your talent. Plus, put dark cloth in front of the actors as close to their feet as possible – never let them stand back with a lot of green in front of them.

    The latter applies to full body shots only, of course. in all other cases, avoid any green around your actors.

  • @GeoffreyKenner

    Wow F/8 plus a shutter speed of 1/100 that will require some serious lighting no doubt. So just to recap what I read so far. It is suggested to use the sharpest most modern lens as possible plus using a the "correct" green screen. I have two at the moment a cloth backdrop and a paper backdrop from Savage 107" x 12yds Background Paper (#46 Tech Green) the ones that I have are really cheap do you have any recommended green screen backdrops?

    I have another question about the F stop. Since I am using the GH4/GH2/AF100 if I use F4 this is equivalent to an F/8 on a full frame will this suffice?

  • If I can help with my own experience here are things to keep in mind when doing a greenscreen: 1) try not to go under f8, you want a perfectly well defined subject in focus without depth of field. (This also means you gonna have to rent a lot of lights) 2) shutter speed above 1/100 because you do not want motion blur for greenscreen. You add it later in post if necessary. 3) lit well your scene and have a flat green surface. Also be sure that your greenscreen is a correct green one, I've received many shots which didn't use the official green which needed then to be corrected. Many green screen aren't good for chroma keying. Test your greenscrene before using it. 4) do not forget to denoise your shot before performing a chroma key.

    Also, I would suggest you to rather use nukex than after effects for compositing greenscreen. It has the same plugin (keylight & primatte) and many others useful tool that doesn't exist in AE and can sometimes be time saving when it comes to deal with complicated shots.

    And the more resolution, the better for greenscreen. It ain't so much about the color depth (this is useful but in particular cases when you have to deal with extreme shots that needs a very precise range of color)

  • Interesting Test by Video Alchemy:

    Panasonic GH4 4K vs Blackmagic Cinema Camera Green Screen / Chroma Key Comparision

  • Not good enough to be called "as well as", which is the title of this thread. Likely "good enough" for most though.

    edit: there was no context given by the OP, it's a general question of whether A is as good as B. No, A is not as good as B. That's a simple fact.

    Now, is A just fine for local/regional commercials, for non-realistic weatherman style work? Sure. Fine. Neither the audience or anyone else would benefit from or could tell the difference between A and B in that scenario. Of course, in that context, any old camera is fine because we're establishing an audience that can't tell, doesn't care and a situation where it doesn't really matter anyway.

    Also, it also doesn't matter if the footage is being handled by someone dependent on "a few clicks" and who looks at the work like that. It doesn't matter what the footage is or where it came from if it's the magical keying tool that's going to be the deciding factor in how good the result is.

  • @CarlosMorillo awesome for 4:2:0, corrected result was worth the effort. Well done!

  • I re-upped the video and with just 2 more clicks removed some of that green edging. Again this is not to say keying 4:2:0 footage is optimal but simply to say it's not nearly as big a nightmare as it's being made out to be.

  • I been doing digital keying since the video cube ;) the most important things to remember are object isolation against the background to avoid the spill, separate illuminations to the background and the subject, avoid shadow casting and keep a plain illumination on the background. Modern software make to easy to do Chroma Key, mainly digital compositing software (After effects, Nuke, etc..) thanks to better tools to do this. The image from the GH4 with a external recorder at 10Bit definitive will help, thanks to the improved resolution and additional color space, RAW data i don't think it will help too much if the first rules are not accomplished. My two cents.

  • @peaceonearth You are right. That can easily be corrected with a couple more clicks. The point was to show how easy is to key out 4:2:0 footage from a GH3 with it's compressed internal code and minimal effort by color picking the background. The ultra keyer has settings for removing spill from the edges adjusting saturation of color being keyed and to choke/soften the matte etc. The GH4 recorded to 10 bits in 4K uncompressed should key more cleanly.

  • @CarlosMorillo The hair is not too bad but I still see clearly green edges at the hands and the forearms

    image

  • 60% of this video was shoot in front of a green screen using Gh3

  • I think today's powerful keyer has made keying 4.2.0 footage much easier.

  • You can download the original ProRes file so you can see what I was referring to about the hair. Vimeo really mushes up the details. Even around the crown which I thought might be a problematic key, it was a breeze.

  • I made a test using the GH3 internally recorded. Just guessing the GH4 externally recorded at 10 bits would be even better. If this can be achieved with a couple of clicks in Premiere I'm certain with a little love you could get good results in after effects. Check out all the detail that was kept in the fly away hairs by the crown. Didn't bother softening the key or messing with too many details but I really don't see why getting a decent key would be an issue. I've even done full body shots with green spill everywhere and keying it was no problem. It's just a matter of knowing your way around After Effects. As long as there is a difference in color there is a key to be had.

  • @BurnetRhoades

    Can you make tests or at least few illustrations showing issues, so everyone could understand?

  • 422 Prores will still require special handling and filtering.

    The only thing well thought out, regarding 4K 420, is knowing it's not good, not advisable and only something you do if you have no other choice. It's a "make do" sort of deal, making the best of a bad situation.

    All of the problems with 420 1080P video are plainly evident in 420 4K imagery from the GH4. In fact the codec is even more harsh in a lot of sample imagery posted here and elsewhere than high-bit GH2 footage (highlights, particularly the blue channel). Scaling down 4K has already proven to retain macroblocking and other artifacts. There's no free lunch here. Dark, noisy edges at 4K are still going to look bad at 1080P the same way dark, bad edges done to 2K film scanned imagery still looks bad when viewed at 480P or even worse, once transferred to VHS.

    All those bad edges from opticals done in the '80s at ILM were effectively much higher than 4K resolution, given they did optical work with VistaVision plates. Even after all filtering from duplication and reduction for eventual broadcast or home video release there was absolutely no improvement to their quality. A similar principle applies here.

  • You debayer the RAW and work high precision linear.

    Cool, in this case we must talk about 422 ProRes.

    And I still want to see good, well thought tests comparing 4K 420 and 2K 422 keying.

  • You debayer the RAW and work high precision linear.

  • but RAW is the way to go.

    What software for keying work directly with raw data?

  • 422 color isn't ideal but it's doable, with proper filtering, and much better than any compressed format. 420 compressed, fuggetaboutit, that's amateur and will take a lot of effort to get decent results with. It's only advisable if you have no alternative. You'll spend effort just trying to get a decent, clean key, effort that could be spent on actually making the overall composite better.

    To answer the OP, no, the GH4 is not as good as or better than any Blackmagic camera for green screen, regardless of mode, Prores or RAW, but RAW is the way to go.

    edit: on top of shooting RAW, or at least 422, lens is going to be very critical. Even shooting RAW you could still get problematic edges if your lens suffers from chromatic effects. Here's where having a bland, clinical, "too sharp" lens, like, for instance, something Leica, really comes in handy. Something really modern will be better for shooting green screen than your classic lenses good for narrative and normal cinematography.

  • The biggest problem in my experience hasn't been data rate, but color space. 4:2:0 is horrible to work with.

  • 10bit 422 1080 should key great. Mind you, if your green screen is poorly lit, all resolution and color space arguments don't amount to much, imho

  • And GH4's 4K modes are 100 Mbps, which isn't really that high bitrate considering the resolution. If we split it in 4 (the same as 1080/2k) then it's 25 Mbps. Regular h264.

    It is quite high, and no, you can't "just split" it, it is more complex. For usual interviews and such (about 90% of all green screen that small firms and amateurs do) it is near loseless.

    And I think that such tests are necessary to do. Not so hard to make, really.

  • No tests, but actual work. Not allowed to share unfortunately. And GH4's 4K modes are 100 Mbps, which isn't really that high bitrate considering the resolution. If we split it in 4 (the same as 1080/2k) then it's 25 Mbps. Regular h264.

  • Vitliy You know RAW is better for VFX and green screen YES its heavier but its better.

    I did not asked about that I know. I asked for tests comparing 2K raw and very high bitrate 4K.