4K Black Magic Production Camera, raw, $2495 now

jrd

Oh, lord, forgive me, I called it a LUT!

Which doesn't alter the fact that you're arguing now that the ACES workflow is better by definition, and regardless of what one intends to do with the footage or the preferred look.

All based on one web video and examples of poorly corrected web footage, but (I gather?) no actual shooting/grading experience with BMD footage. That may be a sufficient threshold for you, but I don't see how you can expect anyone else to embrace it. This is not a faith-based community.

BurnetRhoades

No, not based on one video, based on a broader investigation of a new industry standard for the purpose of setting up a consistent color pipeline for a digital post production facility. I'm making those decisions based on leading industry trends and in response to the spotty and poor results that I've seen across the board since the first motion pictures ever shot in a RAW format, having worked on the first for a Sony camera. Wrestling with the question of is it the camera or is it the methodology. Now it's pretty clear, it's been the methodology.

You have a very incomplete notion of what this is even about. The BMD footage and the inherent problems exhibited in 90+% of all published footage I've seen is just a small part of my interest. Contrary to your statement though, you are living in a "faith based" community. That's what's so funny.

jrd

Yes, hilarious. "Based on "90+% of all published footage" (on youtube?) one could also reasonably conclude that unpacking and cat videos are the latest art form and that the mental age of the average adult is 15-1/2.

But let's not quibble. I concede that my notions are necessarily "incomplete", lacking as I do experience with the first Sony camera. The only evidence I have to offer in this dispute is actual shooting and grading experience with BMD footage.

kholi

FYI an ACES Workflow is forcing people to avoid using BMDFILM as a starting point.

The DNGs are already linear, ACES' interpretation of that's pretty close to scene-referred (LR4) so it helps as a starting point. You can, if you know what you're doing, avoid the grey gauze and get to the same place without ACES.

It certainly isn't plug and play, at the end of it all.

That said, I do watch a lot of BMD footage, and a lot really could benefit from A) Shooting RAW and B) ACES as a starting point. I looked back at my earlier footage compared to what I get now, part of that's hardware (crappy NDs, no IR filter) but most is just learning the camera(s) over the last year. Many ways to get to where you want to go, not many of those ways are wrong really.

matt_gh2

@BurnetRhoades Very interesting for BM users. The ACES shot looked much better vs the LUT. I think this type of thing is important to post, because the biggest hurdle for BM users is learning how to optimally deal with footage in post. That's a significant difference in how those 2 images look. Good stuff here.

BurnetRhoades

You can, if you know what you're doing, avoid the grey gauze and get to the same place without ACES...

Of course, but which method is going to ultimately be more productive, all things being equal? Continuing one in light of the other presumes there's some nobility in the labor itself that somehow transcends value for the client as well as value of one's own time. Who is giving out the cookies for being one of the few at the dials that can correct for methodology-based defects?

But, that's neither here nor there. I was simply curious about that BMCC + BMPC example posted on the other page.

kholi

@BurnetRhoades

The one that you know how to work with is always going to be the most productive. ACES is still rather fledgling all-things-considered, hence the improper IDTs and ODTs right now. Nobody needs to receive cookies, the reality of it is a lot of colorists area completely fine, and fast, working as they have been.

I think there's also a misunderstanding of color and clients: you don't go to big color houses to get finished quickly.

I don't think there's any reason to push anyone into a workflow, IMO if you want to educate people on it then detail the benefits. I have an idea of what the workflow is, what it does, etc. But, you've only said

"The ACES result is more saturated than folks are getting with LUTs. The colors are more pure looking, compared with the various LUT starting points. The LUT is a look, that someone defined, based not on what the sensor is actually responding to but a subjective decision from top to bottom. That the ACES result looks more saturated could very well be a truer representation of how the sensor is really responding to light rather than the color version of the telephone game (it could, currently we don't know if that's actually true or not)."

That... kinda doesn't mean anything at all if you read it a few times. Just describes the obvious. Someone sees that, attempts to run an ACES workflow on ProRes FILM from the camera and they'll likely ask you why nothing changed from the standard YRGB workflow when selecting CinemaDNG IDT.

Anyway, I understand the benefits, personally. Just saying, you're kind-of oversimplifying, at least to me.

BurnetRhoades

I would urge them to read the readily available information detailing the design and intent, view the readily available examples and the case studies of productions that have switched.

I oversimplified perhaps, in response to a worse over-simplification. I just really should have asked for the clips and not even bothered, truthfully.

CaptainHook

The LUT is a look, that someone defined, based not on what the sensor is actually responding to but a subjective decision from top to bottom.

ACES isn't really much different in that regard, in that subjective artistic decisions have been made as well. They say so on their site. Worse, the IDT's can change on you.

But this stuff is really meant to be a helpful start, so if one prefers ACES, great. :)

I wonder how people get good looking images from Alexa, because when you put on the default Alexa LUT its not much different to the BMD one on BMDFilm footage. Oh.. they grade it. Right. :P

jrd

The "gray gauze" is gone in a matter of seconds, after basic levels adjustments, as anyone who's worked on BMD footage can tell you.

There may be other compelling reasons to use the ACES workflow, yet to be supplied, but instant high saturation and avoidance of gray gauze will not be among them.

The main attraction of the BMD FILM LUT is that it prepares the footage for grading in Rec.709, but doesn't impose a heavily stylized "look". Users who want a particular look from the outset, or certain features, and won't be fighting those operations in the course of the grade (if any), can use other workflows.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

igorek7

@Vitaliy_Kiselev Remarkable hack and enhancement of BM4K by Kinefinity!

andyharris

Since Resolve 10.1.4.900 BM have added a LUT for the 4K camera. For the most part this appears to have solved the issues I was having in cutting between the two.

The LUTs are called:

Black Magic Production Camera 4K Film to Rec709 Black Magic Cinema Camera Film to Rec709

Here's a quick example project that shows cutting together is seamless, with nothing other than gain changed to match brightness:

Vitaliy_Kiselev

MikeLinn

BMCC vs BMPC4k Detail Comparison

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Blackmagic Production Camera 4K

Updated user interface

Losslessly compressed RAW DNG recording support

Addresses an issue where pixel artefacts are seen in edges with strong highlights while shooting in 1080 mode

Adds autofocus support for compatible EF lenses

Go to BM site to download Blackmagic Camera Utility 1.8

MikeLinn

matthere

Looks like camera update 1.9 is just for BMPC..

Blackmagic Design today announced the immediate availability of Camera 1.9 software which includes new “heads up display” on screen metering that provides customers with histogram, peak audio meters and recording time remaining for the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K.

Camera 1.9 update is available now free of charge from the Blackmagic Design website.

Using these additional displays for the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K means that customers can easily and quickly check important camera settings such as exposure, audio level and the remaining space on their recording disk.

Using the histogram scope, customers can now easily and rapidly set exposure in a shot as the histogram shows the the distribution of luminance in their images and if highlights or shadows are being clipped. Images with clipped highlights or shadows make it much harder to color grade the shots in post production, so having the histogram feature helps DOP’s shoot with confidence. The histogram scope is real time so highlights and shadows can be adjusted interactively with the lens setting, ensuring images are not clipped and maximum detail in tonal ranges is preserved, critically important for allowing colorists to create amazing grading effects in post production using the full contrast range of the camera.

Camera 1.9 software update also includes a new audio metering with peak hold feature to allow setting audio levels for Channels 1 and 2 when using the built in microphone as well as externally connected audio sources. The audio meters make it fast to view audio levels and adjust camera audio gain so that audio is not clipped or distorted.

The new heads up display also includes a recording time remaining indicator that shows remaining space on the recording disk. The time remaining indicator is automatically re-calibrated to ensure an accurate time remaining value if the either the frame rate or codec are changed, and displays red when the disk is getting full.

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support

"This will be coming for all other cameras as well" - BM

Vitaliy_Kiselev

Blackmagic Design has issued Camera Utility v1.9.5 firmware update that adds in-camera formatting support for SSD storage devices to the Production Camera 4K. Update also includes general performance improvements and enhancements for Blackmagic URSA 4K video camera.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support