Hey all:
First time posting.
I'll be graduating in May with an Associates Degree in Communications from a community college that only has 2 year degrees. I live in New York state 30 minutes from NYC.
Is it possible to get work in TV Production or digital photography? I've been black-balled in my college because I discovered crony collusion in the school newspaper that went all the way up to the Dean's level, and it just went downhill from there.
I have a 3.98 GPA and one withdraw with passing. I have a good portfolio, but no stable job experience.
I'm not looking to go to a four year school (to get a Bachelors degree) for a number of reasons. Is it possible to get a job in the field? Any advice?
I'd suggest ditching your "photoman" account now and starting another. Which has zero connection this thread and being "blackballed". (sorry to hear about it :-/ )
It doesn't really matter who is in the right and who is in the wrong.... as unfortunately, as the saying goes in politics, "explaining is losing".
Good luck @photoman whichever path you choose.
@rockroadpix Thank you for the reply.
I appreciate the advice. I've interned and freelanced at places local to me already.
I've worked places on and off. I've lived a bit. I've also suffered like many of you, I'm sure. I'm 27. It did take me a long time to get the Associates. Honestly, though. I've learned significantly more through books, other students, and forums like this one than that "college." All I can think of is the CNN documentary "Ivory Tower."
Unfortunately with media work, I usually get comments like: "we can't pay you, but you can use it for your portfolio". It isn't really worth it when I spend more money on transportation and equipment than I'm getting paid (if at all). I think people devalue the work (and me by extension) if they don't pay anything for it. It's difficult to get out of the pattern, I think.
Unfortunately, there is always someone else who will do it for free. I was there a couple of years ago; my mind isn't anymore.
I know non-profits turn to LLCs. Freelancing is another way to say "no benefits." Many of you guys may have started that way. I don't think I have it in me anymore.
I'm not ruling it out, but I'm probably going to change areas if I can. I'll always have this as a hobby.
But thank you guys regardless, and again I'm sorry for being short before.
I'll always be reading the forum. It's fascinating stuff.
You can get work in NYC if you hustle and show that you want to work. I hire PAs all the time. I know a lot of people here groan when they hear PA (they're all the next big director DP), but if you show that you are willing to work and learn AND that you have a desired skill/career path, you can get in good with whichever department you prefer and they will help you along. ie calling you to be Camera PA, Art PA or whatever... You won't get a full time job with little or no experience without interning at that place first. Don't let the size of the market intimidate you, it should only give you courage to know that there are more opportunities. As for the degree thing, unless you want to teach one day or your life's goal was obtaining a degree, you really don't need it in TV production. This is not the case if you want to work back at the headquarters of say, HBO. If you want to be hands on out there, get the cash that would be equivalent of 1 year's tuition and go out to make your career begin. Get a cheap place in Queens or Jersey and do the work.
I was debating posting this for a couple of months.
This is just a follow up in case someone out there is interested. The college I referred to is finally being investigated by the NY State Inspector General. I was among the few that took pride in their work. And yes, these people were in my classes stealing my homework and cheating on tests as if it were highschool.
Many faculty members let it happen. Being in New York and a state university, I question if anything will come of this.
The newspaper... the editor-in-chief at the time felt the need to steal the domain and transfer the actual site to his personal hosting account. I was the only person who had the foresight to look up the site information after he purged everyone's work from the system.
Typical administration believed him over me. Now I'm getting paid to fix what he broke.
I apologize again for the other thread. I was really high strung over this and I did take a lot of comments personally, which I should not have.
CFreak points to arguably the best thing about film school: You make connections.
To those of you who gave polite responses, I thank you.
@Photoman ...no one gave you an un-polite response. Some was just harder for you to swallow perhaps ! Life will be no bowl of cherries. Choose the career you love and make personal sacrifices to achieve it. Otherwise your career will choose you, and you'll work 45 hours a week, if you're lucky, at a job you hate. There are literally hundreds of millions of people the world over in that predicament. And those are the lucky ones. Most new graduates can't find work of any kind whatsoever.
And what's worse ....automation will eliminate even most of those jobs in the next 20 years as well. Or they'll hire someone from Bangladesh.
And truthfully, when I add this comment to your black-balled deal.... ?
You got a couple of hundred years experience here for free. Put it to good use.
When I got out of college I was able to find work as a camera assistant in NYC. I was also lucky, in the right place at the right time with the right skills. That's the combo that you need in this business. This was my path:
20 years ago, In college I got financial aid and was able to get a job in the school's equipment room and later was picked to work in the equipment repair shop. I learned more in those 2 jobs that helped me immediately in my career than I did in my classes. The first weeks of school we HAD to learn the cameras (16mm film) to be a little informed when letting the students check them out. I learned how to repair lights, solder cables, test microphones, and eventually batteries, cameras and lenses.
All this helped me get a recommendation from my boss to work at a professional camera rental house only for the summer, they were one of our vendors. Due to my rental house experience, I was selected to load film on a big budget 35mm student film, the keys on the crew were pros, I worked loading mags for the focus puller, who had come off being the camera trainee on "Law & Order". He trained me just as he learned from them. He took me from there to another unpaid, low budget feature. I went to school 3 days a week and worked on the film 4 days a week. The DP of that film was an established professional camera assistant and his father was an established commercial DP. I was dedicated and impressed the DP with my knowledge on the shoot. He bumped me up to pull focus when the 1st AC had started to "have enough" of this low budget film that went over schedule. After the shoot I was invited by the DP to join him prepping equipment at Panavision for a union commercial he was the camera assistant on. He then invited me onto the commercial as an unpaid trainee. He told me to go load the film into the mags, and at the end of the day he got the production manager to pay me $100 when I was just happy to have the experience. He went on to train me on more shoots. From there his friends would call me anytime they needed a non-union AC and they all encouraged me to join the union. I did and found work for years.
All of this came from my job at school, my thirst for knowledge, my sweat, hard work, luck and being in the right place, at the right time, with the right attitude.
NYC had been recovered from Hollywood strike and work was growing. Today NYC is booming in episodic TV (union work).
When I started to shoot small projects as a DP, then and really only then, did I feel I was using my education (plus all the professional experience I had from AC'ing). All the background I learned in school was now being used. It's a great base, but, not necessary to enter the business. When I was a camera assistant, word of mouth recommendations and the occasional resume request was all that was needed. If I was asked to supply a resume, it was only because they weren't sure they would hire me. Most other people on the crew had not been to film school and resented ones that did, so I didn't mention it, but, didn't deny it. If someone knew, they'd say yeah, but, you're ok, because they already knew I was a hard working guy and the preconceived notion was that film school didn't turn out hard workers.
So in your case, do everything you can to gain experience in your chosen field. If you don't know something, today you have the internet at your disposal and can learn almost anything you want to (to a certain degree). Use your work experience, the people you already know to find your next experience. What I found in freelance work it that if you're good, it's like a spider web, the bigger your web gets the easier it is to succeed. Everyone in your web has to potential to give you a warm tip.
Cold calling is the hardest. In this case try to drop off your resume personally, if you do that 10 times, the secretary might become your ally and give you a warm contact with someone hiring, or the contact might recognize your determination and forget about anyone who just emails in their resume. Do what you need to do to stand out form the rest.
Many people I went to school with I never saw again. 20 years later through facebook and LinkedIn I see that maybe 30%-50% did something in the entertainment business. Many never found a path in, or didn't want to. In NYC it's easier than in smaller places. It's even harder in some places in Europe.
Project positivity, dedication and willing-ness to work hard. Don't try to impress everyone wherever you go, have dignity and stay level headed, and you'll impress them in the long run, and, do better than those that had a moment of success but nothing to follow it up with.
Thank you very much, @danabrams.
I sent you a link to my online portfolio very private message.
I'm in NYC and I hire people. Send me your resume.
First and foremost the thing I look at is experience and reel. I also look for people who it think would be fun to work with, especially people with great attitudes.
That said, I hate to admit it, but I do look at education and if I had two candidates who were otherwise the same but one had a bachelors and the other an associates, I would choose the bachelors. But of course, it's rarely that simple.
I think several others have put forward the best idea: just go out and do it. No one is going to just hand you the keys to the job or career you want. Go out there, make videos for local businesses on a low budget, invest in gear, get experience and eventually you'll have a viable business.
But the most important aspect of this is going to be your attitude I think. Be humble. No job is beneath you. Take responsibility for your failures. Learn from them. Don't blame others. Invest in your education and your gear. Live frugally and invest in your business. Save money. Work hard, really hard...60, 70, 80 hours a week frequently. And in three to five years you'll be a superstar locally. Then it's time to become a superstar nationally.
To those of you who gave polite responses, I thank you.
As of this moment (today), I'm looking at going to a four-year college and changing fields.
@Kurth I'm only giving my opinion, and for me, even a BA in film, esp from a place like USC was something I'd circle on a resume. MFA is better though.
...obviously if someone has a masters graduated magna cum laude from usc school of cinematic arts in film and television production, that will be a calling card. In fact a masters from any top10 school in film would be, and that would probably be the best advice we could give. Reconsider returning to school ! A top10 state school with state tuition where you wouldn't be in debt for the rest of your life. But a masters is the absolute bottom rung where a degree has influence. Bachelors much less Associate Degrees are a dime a dozen...actually a nickel.
ps- and of course you can always go to the Publishers Clearing House lottery of filmmaking by making a feature and getting it distributed. That rings a lot of bells. But the odds are worse than winning the Jersey Sweepstakes. In fact a lottery ticket is a better investment !
I too was once in a position to hire production people. And I disagree that degrees don't matter. I would absolutely take them into consideration. From my experience, a person with a degree from USC Cinema school was invariably someone I'd take more seriously that typical self taught guy with a resume full of music videos. Degrees aren't the only thing, but they are one of the things we'd look at. Best advice here is DO NOT mention that blackball thing. That's a kiss of death. Red flag.
I worked in TV broadcast for 12+ years. Kurth has stated it quite well.
Let's start with your degree/college experience - it's really not worth much. When I was hiring, I'd get a stack of 30+ resumes/reels/portfolios on my desk at a time, and can't recall a single time I cared anything about their degree. Before I even read someone's resume, I looked at their portfolio and/or reel. If I wasn't impressed, it went in the "no" pile and the Work History was never read at all. TV mgmt doesn't care what classes you took, or what grades you got - what they really care about is what you can DO. Given 2 candidates with great work, the only thing the degree helps you with is telling me that you have some sort of long-term work ethic (ie, it took work to stay in school for 2 yrs and get a good GPA). Caveat - if your degree is from a place that the industry considers rather prestigious - say, SCAD - THEN it will help you. But a community college? No way.
You will have a lot of competition for a job in TV. Many of your fellow applicants will have years of experience IN television... NYC is a big market, television careers are commonly built by moving from smaller markets to larger ones. So you aren't just competing against other new graduates, you're competing against a seasoned pro from Indianapolis. You will likely have more luck starting in a much smaller market yourself.
If you really want to get a job in TV, prepare to start at the very bottom... usually this will be in Master Control. It's one of the worst jobs in a station, but it's also a very valid stepping stone into production. Internships can also be very helpful - we did in fact hire interns, when positions are also opening in the same time frame - but it sounds as if you're past time interning stage of college.
It doesn't pay that well, by the way. The hours can be long, the job can feel thankless at times. It can also feel very rewarding, but - put it this way: eating a filet mignon is a much different experience than working in the slaughterhouse. I've known countless interns and new hires who found that working in TV was nowhere nearly as glamorous nor lucrative as they'd dreamed.
And yes - don't bring up the Blackballed story again. That would a really big red flag to me. Whether it was your fault or not, it would tell me that working with you may involve some sort of future drama... and that will put you on the "sorry, but not interested" list.
OK ....hard lesson. Your degree is not worth anything. Zero. Even less your gpa ! If you had a Master's, maybe, but with experience and credits. You want a beginner to start right at the top ? ...in NYC ? Come on ! Sorry to be so blunt but I think you're not being realistic.
This is a radically declining market. Every T,D, and Harry has a camera and can take pictures. Photography and video businesses are falling like flies. Even major news corporations are laying off their newsgatherers.
You need credits, reels, resumes, recommendations, and that's just to start in some little podunk town 30 minutes in the other direction. Jobs are not given to beginners.
First ...make a few docs so you have experience and something to show. Then volunteer for free. This will require one of two strategies. Living at home....or working at McDonalds. In this world, everyone has to pay their dues !
...and a final recommendation ! Drop the story about "blackballed". It will serve you none , in fact, just the opposite !
Many hiring managers still view work experience as being preferable to yrs in college. I would consider starting your own small scale production company (1 or 2 cameras, audio recorder, a couple LED lights, etc.) and do jobs making films for businesses (friends and family) or shooting music videos. This will provide some hands-on work experience through the eyes of a cameraman and producer while also boosting your portfolio further. You may even develop a niche that allows you to generate enough income to work for yourself, rather than on the side. Interning will help to get you more familiar with some aspects of production work but only by working for yourself will you truly gain perspective on the entire process from planning, shooting, post and on through distribution. That experience is valuable on a resume.
I would check this. http://www.bwiny.org/pages/programs/patraininga.html I don't remember who told me about it, but I think is looks quite appealing for someone in your position.
If you're looking into TV Production, I'd check into starting with smaller markets, and move your way up. NYC it's self is the #1 TV market so there's a lot of competition. I'm in Sacramento which is #20, and if you're motivated and show yourself as professional, there's usually part time on call type stuff with the local television stations you can pickup to get experience and prove yourself to the station.
There's also other types of jobs out there with various production companies. You start making phone calls and sending your reel's and info out, and shake a lot of hands, and eventually that will pay off.
Also, if you can... INTERN :) That will get some job experience on your resume, and get you networking with some people who can vouch for you when you go to apply for jobs.
These are just some tips I've picked up... they may or may not work for you or for everyone. But definitely some things to consider.
Of course it's possible. But you're competing with people that have a lot more education. A two year degree isn't impressive unless you're applying for a job such as dental tech or culinary.
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