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HELP: Setting up After Effects for GH2 Color Grading
  • Hi everybody,

    I'm on a PC (Win 7 64bit, After Effects CS6).

    I would be very grateful if someone gives me an advice on how to correctly setup After Effects for GH2 Color Grading. In general, what Color Management settings should be set in the:

    1. Project settings (32bpc, HDTV rec. 709 16-235 or Preserve RGB?...)?
    2. Interpret footage Tab (HDTV rec. 709 16-235 or sRGB?...)
    3. Output Module settings (HDTV rec. 709 16-235 or Preserve RGB?...)
    4. DNxHD codec settings (Rec. 709 or RGB Levels?...)

    I had to raise this question because all my attempts of rendering my GH2 footage turn into a nightmare (blacks are crushed too much, footage looks much darker than the original ungraded footage, blacks don't blend "gently".

    I tried to manipulate with transcoded footage (using Neocsene and 5DtoRGB for Win) but I still get the same results after I render with DNxHD. What pisses me off is that in AE after I render a thing I can't even get this ungared thing (without applying any effects!) to have the same colors as the original.

    I do realize it's related to the Color Management and/or the codec issues.

    Thank you in advance.

  • 49 Replies sorted by
  • Hey, this topic is quite old but I wanted to answer so it may eventually helps people in the future. Project settings is going to concerns all your input (footage as video/image sequence files and full cgi with passes) In case you do use only gh2 footage, there is absoluetely no need at all to go above 8bit since it´s not going to make your project look 32bit if you set it. It´ll only display the picture profile of the input like for example openExr 32 bit files or tiff 16 bit files rendered for example in maya. But 8bit files will remain 8bit even if you display 32 bit (that would have been to easy if you could transform just like this 8bit to 32bit with just a click)

    Same goes for the interpret footage the only difference is, it´ll help to control elements individually. If you import native .MTS file, just keep the basics project settings 8bit preserve rgb. If you have done some transcoding like prores and put rec709 profile before, use it for this footage but remain in 8bit (unless planning heavy compositing that needs to import footage of images rendered with a linear workflow sRGB but in this case you will have to edit seperately every elements which in the end will help you a lot to match your elements with the footage)

  • @CTheEsrevinu you absolutely should not be grading in an 8bit composition in AfterEffects, regardless of whether you're compositing multiple layers or not.

    A big problem is you can't do lossless transcoding between 8bit YUV and RGB sources. They're not equivalent. Only if an editor were to stay completely in the YUV space and you were doing little or no grading at all would staying in an 8bit environment be anything but destructive to your footage.

  • Switch to HDTV rec. 709 BEFORE importing clips. 16-235 or full swing... depends on taste, anyhow use at least 16 bit processing to avoid banding. (Or make it worse...). Export depends on circumstances. What do you need? Who needs to be happy?

  • Concurring with @Meierhans.

    Set Rec 709 before import.
    8 bit = banding.
    Any 32 bit effects which apply gain will probably (make things worse) end up pushing something above 235 (pink and purple dots). And you wont see them until you render.

    I use 16 bits

  • @CTheEsrevinu, @BurnetRhoades, @Meierhans, @kavadni Thanx a lot for your comments. Sorry for not being able to reply for that long. Though the subject of this thread is very old, I figured out the issue by myself already (a long time ago).

    After hundreds of tests I made with GH2 footage, I've come to the following conclusion for those who on PCs:

    1. Project settings (32bpc, HDTV rec. 709).
    2. Interpret footage Tab (HDTV rec. 709)
    3. Output Module settings (HDTV rec. 709)
    4. DNxHD codec settings (RGB Levels) - NOT Rec. 709!!! This one is the most important thing!

    You, colleagues, may not agree with me but I suppose I'm right on these settings.

    @CTheEsrevinu I think you’re totally wrong on the case if I use only gh2 footage, “there is absoluetely no need at all to go above 8bit” since its not gonna make my project look 32bit. For color grading it matters a lot!!! It’s visually obvious in AE. Nobody’s saying it’ll be 32bit out of 8bit. During the process of color grading you’ll get color gradation applied more accurately in case you switch to 32bit. Go see through some threads of @shian and his site dedicated to color grading… As for transcoding… Transcoding helps a lot! Color grading of native MTS is not that good as with transcoding. I use NeoScene and graded transcoded files differ (much less banding, aliasing etc…) from the graded native MTS files!

    Also, one of the most important things is the output profile. For those who on PC, it should always be DNxHD codec. No matter what your final product will be (for broadcast, DVD, Blu-ray, Web…). 1. Render to DNxHD. 2. Render the file (transcoded to DNxHD) to what ever you like. In the export settings of this codec you should check “RGB levels” (not Rec. 709). Otherwise you’ll get your blacks crashed (The same situation goes with whites) and they will be black as hell because native GH2 footrage is 16-235 and not 0-255.

    All what I said above is my personal view, so some of you may not agree with me.

  • @MikhailK I think you've got the right stuff there. I just wish I could render to ProRes from my Windows CS6 instead of DNxHD (5DtoRGB for Windows will let you transcode MTS to ProRes, surprisingly).

    I rarely feel the need to manually mess with interpret footage though. The files tell AE what they are and unless I'm doing a speed change, like on 720P footage, I might just double check in the project window to make sure they're as expected.

  • @BurnetRhoades thanks. As for the interpretation, I agree with you but sometimes I wanna make sure "manually" 'cause I don't trust AE's automatic functions very much :-)

  • Yeah, every once in a while you might get a clip that for whatever reason might "lie". I just see a lot of operator-induced-oscillation, borrowing an aviation term, from folks who create problems for themselves assuming just because there are options or buttons or settings they must mess with them. Often messing with them at every step along the way making as big of a mess as they can for themselves and as difficult as possible for anyone trying to troubleshoot their setup.

    The basic workflow for getting GH2 footage into a 32bit color managed pipeline involves no special recipe really, even the transcoding step via 5DtoRGB comes up defaulted to the appropriate options when converting MTS from a GH2 (you just choose whether you want ProRes or DNxHD and at what depth, determined by whichever output driver you choose).

    You do have to be mindful of your configuration of the output module in AfterEffects, that can screw you up, like you point out above.

  • @MikhailK

    I am going to try the RGB at output time, that could be the cause/solution to 'purple dots' when I have worked in 32bits rather than 16. Previously I've maintained Rec 709 all the way through.

  • I never work in REC 709.

    ever

    ever

  • @MikhailK

    Project settings (32bpc, HDTV rec. 709 16-235 or Preserve RGB?...)?

    Interpret footage Tab (HDTV rec. 709 16-235 or sRGB?...)

    Output Module settings (HDTV rec. 709 16-235 or Preserve RGB?...)

    DNxHD codec settings (Rec. 709 or RGB Levels?...)

    When you use After Effects in Color Managed mode, you should select the color space that matches the embedded profile in the video file. If you select a mismatched color space, AE will remap the colors in the file and you will get gaps and/or peaks in the histogram. For GH2 MTS files, the correct AE color space is "HDTV (Rec. 709)". You can confirm this by checking the Interpret Footage dialog for any imported MTS clip and verify that it does not remap the colors.

    Once the footage is imported correctly into AE, you are working in a color managed, 32-bit floating point color space. You can render your graded results into any format using any codec without concern for color space mismatches. When you output to DNxHD, AE's 32-bit color space is automatically converted into the codec's broadcast studio swing (16-235) color space.

  • @LPowell

    When you output to DNxHD, AE's 32-bit color space is automatically converted into the codec's broadcast studio swing (16-235) color space.

    This is a bit misleading.

    DNxHD is a codec. "Broadcast levels" or "studio swing" refers to the luminance range utilzed for image content (16-235 levels utilzed for image content within a file containing 0-255 levels ... talking 8bit). And a color space, well is a color space ... which can be described in a color profile (ITU-R BT.709, HDTV-RGB, sRGB, Adobe-RGB etc. etc.). There is no "color space" that (only) encompasses broadcast safe colors... All color spaces (desinged/used for video) encompass the full range of luminance levels. The same goes for DNxHD (which of course also encompasses 0-255 luminance levels).

  • @towi You're being pedantic about the term "color space". Avid DNxHD codecs use studio swing encoding, which in Adobe After Effects is referred to as ""HDTV (Rec. 709) 16-235", combining the Rec. 709 color space with the studio swing luminance range. Adobe refers to this combination of color space and luminance range as "working space", as in their Interpret Footage dialog: "Color values will not be converted because working space and footage color space match each other." So in After Effects terms, the combined color space and luminance range encoded in a video file is referred to as its "color space".

  • @LPowell

    You're being pedantic about the term "color space". Avid DNxHD codecs use studio swing encoding

    I am pedantic about the term "codec" ... because this ...

    Avid DNxHD codecs use studio swing encoding

    ... is essentially not true.

    Maybe that's Adobe AE slang ... but that doesn't make it more accurate.

    Possibly AE by default transcodes to DNxHD by preserving/remapping to broadcast safe levels... that's okay. But this is not a property of the codec (or the color space) but a function of AE.

  • @tow

    Possibly AE by default transcodes to DNxHD by preserving/remapping to broadcast safe levels...

    Yes, AE does remap its 32-bit working space to DNxHD's studio swing (16-235) luminance range when you export a video with AE in Color Managed mode. It does this automatically because AE knows that DNxHD uses what Adobe refers to as the "HDTV (Rec. 709) 16-235" color space. Avid designed DNxHD to be directly importable into Avid Media Composer without remapping its luminance range. MC is not a Color Managed app and in AE's terms, MC's "working space" is "HDTV (Rec. 709) 16-235", aka "studio swing".

  • Q: Shian why does your stuff look so good?

    A: Cuz I do this...

    Q: But why?

    A: Because it fucking works.

    Q: But that makes no sense. The numbers say something different....blah, blah, blah

    A: Hey, do what you want. Analyze it six ways from Sunday, and give yourself a headache if that makes you happy. But the proof's in the pudding - techno babble be damned.

    Shian, you're an asshole.

    Yeah... it's a character flaw.

  • @LPowell

    Yes, AE does remap its 32-bit working space to DNxHD's studio swing (16-235) luminance range when you export a video with AE in Color Managed mode. It does this automatically because AE knows that DNxHD uses what Adobe refers to as the "HDTV (Rec. 709) 16-235" color space. Avid designed DNxHD to be directly importable into Avid Media Composer without remapping its luminance range. MC is not a Color Managed app and in AE's terms, MC's "working space" is "HDTV (Rec. 709) 16-235".

    okay... makes sense! Within Avid you can transfer 0-255 lumiance levels in and out of Media Composer if you choose to do so. But for a third party software it certainly makes sense to remapp levels to 16-235 when DNxHD is the target codec (as long as the remapping is processed/rendered in high bit ...preferably 16bit or higher). So in this case AE's default for DNxHD accounts for Avid MC's standards ... which ensures a trouble-free workflow/roundtrip between AE and Avid MC.

    Cheers!

  • @shian

    I never work in REC 709. ... ever ... ever

    The funny thing is: you start with Rec 709 ;-) (your camera respectively)

  • Duh. But you don't have to stay there - I'm referring to post.

    Never do it. Why settle for less when you can have so much more.

  • @shian

    Duh. But you don't have to stay there - I'm referring to post. Never do it. Why settle for less when you can have so much more.

    There's nothing wrong with your workflow! But it has absolutely nothing to do with "less" or "more".

    Your workflow is aimed at computer displays. That's fine! When you are working with broadcast-compliant monitors (as I do) you certainly won't ever work with full swing video... There's no loss or gain in either of the workflows (as long as you edit in high bit). Just be sure that you always know what you are doing (in every step of your paricular workflow). That's all...

  • wrong. I deliver projects for projection and broadcast all the time - zero issues.

    I've even delivered stuff for the Nasdaq sign in Times Square - still zero issues. I don't do anything normal. I never accept that the way it's always been done, and the way it's supposed to be done are the correct ones. Which is why I excell. I PUSH. I understand what the limitations are, and I go around them. REC 709 is a bullshit way to work. With a properly calibrated monitor you don't fucking need it. In fact it will actually trip you up. It will lie to you.

    I stopped using outboard monitors when I realized I no longer needed them. I realized this because I worked at a place that had stopped bothering with them as well. And we were pretty much considered the best image processing house on the planet. (They still are. I just don't work there anymore.)

    I have forgotten more about image processing and color space than you will ever know.

  • I see...

    May the Force be with you.

  • A properly calibrated monitor needs a properly calibrated workspace. Just try to composite 3d into your footage or display true color to make them match, without the proper workspace you can be sure that things won´t match. And remember that people monitors aren´t calibrated like your. Now matter how good it is, it is a must if you want to get the job done nicely otherwise there wouldn´t be engineers working everyday on improving a current system that you think works perfectly.

    Also, it is sRGB you should use in AE (and I suppose you use AE for compositing which means cgi, which means matching pure digital with footage, which means linear workflow, which means gamma 2.2 required= sRGB)

    Unless you just want to color correct but that´s a bit stupid to use AE for this when you have speedgrade and davinci.

  • I should clarify that I use a late model Apple Cinema display. The company I used to work for used 90% Apple Cinema Displays. And then Dolby DVS Monitors for final inspections. For those using windows and anything less than an Apple Cinema Display - my way may not work for you quite as consistently.

    I recently had a bout of having to work to try and calibrate a PC monitor: an HP DreamColor - considered "top of the line" - it was a colossal pain in the ass, BUT it gives you a damn nice (and color consistent) image. The major downer is that it's waayyyyyy too pricy. So out of curiousity I went to a few places like Best Buy and Fry's to see if there was anything out there in the same price range as my Apple display that was even close to the quality. Annnnnnd, I feel your pain, windows users. I feel your pain.

  • yea...

    i think we can all understand and appreciate your brand of confusion when it comes to color grading shian..

    its like grind and grind and grind and grind..

    then.. wait,

    my grinder isnt set right! ahhhhh....