Web streaming + HDMI recording 2-3GHx's

andrevanberlo

As there are quite a few videographers around here that use much of the same equipment i do I thought this forum is the best place to post my question.

I want to use the HDMI of my 2 GH3’s for webstreaming using some software like wirecast but also for recording instructional videos on my Mac.

Now I’ve been looking at solutions from AJA, Matrox, and Blackmagic but I’m unsure which one actually does what i need it to do.

This is the short list of features that I’m looking for: 2 hdmi inputs that can be streamed simultaneously to the web Able to record the HDMI of both cams to an SSD the device or card would help out with any rendering done by FCPX , Pr, AE, etc...

Extra’s: I have also one GH2, I’ve read that the HDMI of the GH2 is useless for recording but maybe it can be used for streaming? The possibility of adding the GH2 to the setup and thus having 3 cams would be a welcome bonus but not necessary.

I have an RME fireface 800 that i'll be using for audio capture.

What would you all see as the best way to go about doing this?

bannedindv

Check this out - it's incredible:

Get this App (for iOS - I think android coming soon) http://www.teradek.com/pages/liveair

A powerful Router like this one: http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-RT-AC87U-Wireless-AC2400-Gigabit-Router/dp/B00MPI5N7U

And three or four of these guys :

http://www.teradek.com/pages/vidiumini

and you have an extremely portable ultra light live internet TV station that fits in a backpack.

kupchenpo

@kavadni Cheers mate.

kavadni

@kupchenpo

For any project involving post-production, where de-interlacing is required I prefer to de-interlace before entering the NLE.

kupchenpo

@kavadni What is/was your pipeline from acquisition to post and does it involve deinterlacing at some point? For example: Do you send 1080i to the TVS and record 1080i to your recorder, cut in 1080i and then output progressive? Or do you keep things interlaced all the way? Or deinterlace earlier? How do you avoid interlacing problems? Thanks!

andrevanberlo

I thought why not list a number of possibilities with amounts in € and see what happens. I'm sure there are better combo's so please correct me where needed!

Option 1: * BMD Decklink Quad: €745 * BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle: €795 (€265 x3) or €1060 (€265 x4) * 4x mini SDI to SDI: €82 * Telestream wirecast: €387 * Total: €2009,- (excl. SSD's)

Option 2: *BMD Intensity Pro: €450 (€150x3) or €600 (€150 x4) *Sonnet Echo Express: €520 *Telestream Wirecast: €387,- *Total: €1357,-

Option 3: *BMD Decklink Quad: €745 *hdmi-to-sdi conv: €657 (€219 x3) or €876 (€219 x4) *Telestream Wirecast: €387,- *Total: €1789,-

Option 4: *BMD ATEM TVS: €745,- *BMD Intensity Pro: €300,- (2x €150,-) *Telestream Wirecast: €387,- (i need software to create the split screen, but there might be cheaper option?) * Total: €1432,-

Option 1 is most expensive option but does have possibility to record all cams to SSD (still need to buy the SSD's). The Decklink quad does also route the hdmi signal to the SDI-out without recording activated. The Hyperdecks give flexibility in being able to record to SSD anywhere.

Option 2 is the budget option when not using the ATEM, but here you also have to buy SSD's that have to be on the computer itself. So computer (MAC) is both streaming AND recording at the same time.

Option 3 Is almost as expensive as option 1, without the option of recording to SSD unless you record to an SSD on your computer. So computer is both streaming AND recording at the same time AND you dont have the option to record to SSD anywhere (unless you bring your Desktop)

Option 4 is as cheap as option 3 and if the software (telestream) can be replaced by a cheaper software just to do the splitscreen it will be by far the cheaper option. Recording to SSD would be a challenge though but the streaming bit would be handled by the ATEM so the computer has CPU left for recording if necessary...

Anyone any thoughts on this?

andrevanberlo

@kavadni yeah those audio questions will come up once i have the video questions covered :-)

Actually your last posts got me thinking... (all of them but these in particular)

To do this I could use the ATEM TVS + 2 HDMI cards (in the computer + software to create the composite output to the ATEM) , use the ATEM to switch between the composite output and the other 2 cams...

I thought which card I would need: BMD intensity pro probably for the cards I thought which software would i need: Wirecast perhaps?

so if i'm practically buying all that I could then also wait until I've built my Hackintosh (i know, probably a bad move), in which I will add 2 intensity pro cards(for the HDMI inputs). I could test them and wirecast and how the streaming experience is. Should streaming work well I could then also add another intensity pro card and do all switching with wirecast http://www.tuaw.com/2010/11/14/wirecast-4-delivers-live-video-switching-webcast-streaming/ http://blogs.telestream.net/wirecast/2011/01/24/how-to-use-3-blackmagic-intensity-boards-with-wirecast-4/

should the intensity pro cards+wirecast not work the way I want i could then add the ATEM TVS and proceed as you have outlined in your posts.

The only thing that would be hard to do is to record to ssd at the same time and maybe need a H264 encoder?

Also, the ATEM is 10bit, I don't know what the intensity pro is...

intensitypro does these formats: 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 720p50, 720p59.94 and 720p60 More than enough i would think ATEM TVS does these formats: 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p50, 720p59.94. also more than enough

kavadni

@andrevanberio,

On computers ... An i7 windows notebook with 8G of RAM is able to control the ATEM TVS, and record the H264 stream. I have also used it to control the TVS and stream with MX-Light ... I have never tried all threes.

I intend to purchase that Teradek device for streaming.

Again not a fan of the one computer does all ... everybody I know who has set up that way doesn't use the gear much, or is struggling and wishing they had or planning to get a hardware switcher.

Waiting for more audio questions, and the talkback questions :)

kavadni

@andrevanberio

We are here to help each other, so don't stress the questions.

The Decklink Quad is HD-SDI not HDMI ... that might be an issue.

From your description of what you want and hints at want you might want to do, I would suggest / look for ... a card in a computer/and software that will allow you to do the wipe between the two HDMI cameras in real time ... so two hdmi inputs. Then feed that into an ATEM TVS or 1ME, and switch between the wiped-source and your other cameras, applying the graphics with the keys.

Then record as I described ... cameras on cards, H264 via USB, and DNxHD/Prores.

I think that approach would not leave you regretting expenditure, and allow for expansion and bigger ideas in the future.

I understand now that using the TVS means i can use my 4 cams, use 2 of them to create that "splitscreen" effect that I made in the program, and use the other 2 for wide shots and just swith between those 3 different views? Would that be possible to set up?

Yes, but you'll need 14 fingers and impeccable timing to get in and out of the split screen smoothly ... or set up a transitional DSK

andrevanberlo

@kavadni thanks for your reply, now i understand what you mean with that. You have the 2 cams footage layered and by showing one of them half you see the one in the back appear right?

I had this answer from BMD support:

"the ATEM TVS does not support PIP, and the ATEM 1M/E does not have the Supersource (but it can do 1 PIP) as in the ATEM 2M/E"

So the question is then would wirecast actually do PIP the way I think it would... Could i seperate the screen into 4 segments and each segment showing one of the 4 cams (using the Decklink quad).

"You can switch between 6 cameras, 2 Auxillary Still frames, colour bars and 2 selectable colours. The stills can be selected from a pool of 32 uploaded to the switcher from a file system over ethernet or via a photoshop plugin."

"The TVS has ... in terms of layers ... not the term I would use."

"1 USK (Upstream Key) .... half a layer 1 Mix/Wipe 2 DSK (Downstream Key)"

I understand now that using the TVS means i can use my 4 cams, use 2 of them to create that "splitscreen" effect that I made in the program, and use the other 2 for wide shots and just swith between those 3 different views? Would that be possible to set up?

(hopefully i'm not driving you mad with all my questions, I am very happy with the time you give this and really appreciate it!)

kavadni

@andrevanberio

The ATEM TVS has 6 inputs, 4 of which can be HDMI

Correct

You can have a max of 2 camera views on screen

Not full-views, it has wipes and dissolves, so no picture-in-picture.
You can do a half wipe as per the programme you showed.

You stream directly from the ATEM TVS to the internet with ethernet connection

No, I feed the usb h.264 stream from the TVS to a windows computer and use MX-Light.

You can record an H264 stream to Harddisk and another (uncompressed?) to SSD

Yes

I could mix audio in my RME fireface 800 and route it to one of the cams and use that cams audio for the production and the audio would be in sync.

Yes

the BMD website says the ATEM TVS has 3 seperate layers which i guess means that i can have 3 different views between which i can switch? so lets say 1 view containing the splitscreen, and 2 different wide shots.

Hmmm ... not quite ... no.

You can switch between 6 cameras, 2 Auxillary Still frames, colour bars and 2 selectable colours. The stills can be selected from a pool of 32 uploaded to the switcher from a file system over ethernet or via a photoshop plugin.

The TVS has ... in terms of layers ... not the term I would use.

1 USK (Upstream Key) .... half a layer
1 Mix/Wipe
2 DSK (Downstream Key)

andrevanberlo

@kavadni All the different terms that i seem to have been abusing (using incorrectly) make it hard for you and others to understand what i want/need. Also the info on the BMD website could sometimes be laid out more easily. But your questions and the answers you give me slowly but surely get me where i need to be.

So...

The ATEM TVS has 6 inputs, 4 of which can be HDMI
You can have a max of 2 camera views on screen
You stream directly from the ATEM TVS to the internet with ethernet connection
You can record an H264 stream to Harddisk and another (uncompressed?) to SSD
I could mix audio in my RME fireface 800 and route it to one of the cams and use that cams audio for the production and the audio would be in sync.

the BMD website says the ATEM TVS has 3 seperate layers which i guess means that i can have 3 different views between which i can switch? so lets say 1 view containing the splitscreen, and 2 different wide shots.

I found a thread on CreativeCow.net where Craig Seeman replied to a somewhat similar question:

"Personally I'd consider Blackmagic Quad (cross platform) or Matrox Multi (MacPro) with Telestream Wirecast. It'll see all four HD inputs simultaneously for Picture in Picture if you want. Make sure you have a higher end computer for that. I'd think 8 or 12 core Xeon to be safe."

"ATEM would certainly works as well but you'd still need a Video I/O box and computer to input and encode."

"With Wirecast I've used Skype Group Video account and Wirecast's Desktop Presenter feature to bring everyone in to the live stream with their video. It's good for virtual panel discussions. You can crop each participant so they can have solo shots. If you're taking one call at a time then a standard Skype account will work. I do this for call in interviews with audience and/or guests."

kavadni

@andrevanberio.

For all my productions, I record:

In camera on cards
A live switched H.264 stream (20Mb/s) to hard disk via usb from the TVS
And live switched to a Hyperdeck Studio in DNxHD 220Mb/s.

Always record twice.

kavadni

So I would also need a soundcard with 4 hdmi inputs to be able to record all 4 cameras hdmi's.

No, you would mix your audio and feed it into one of the cameras, and allow the ATEM to keep the audio in sync.

kavadni

I think the words of the BM representative are accurate.
The TVS allows wipe/dissolve/cut on 2 busses. 1 USK and 2 DSKs.

The 1ME is more powerful than the TVS ... that said it's $2.5K
It would have been my choice above the TVS, except for price and the primary usage of my rig, cut/dissolve live concerts with graphics done in post.

andrevanberlo

I got this message from techsupport from bmd, i figure from his info that i cant have 4 cameras in one splitscreen as he doesnt mention the ATEM STUDIO:

"With regard to your options: - On the 2 M/E Production Switcher model, you get a completely separate 5 layer switcher with the power of 4 picture in picture DVEs and 4 keyers connected as an ATEM video input. Also you have the option to use the AUX output - The ATEM 1 M/E and 2 M/E production switchers have auxiliary outputs which are spare SDI outputs that can have various inputs and internal sources routed to them. They are very similar to router outputs, and all video inputs, color generators, media players, program, preview and even color bars can be output. -The DL Quad will accept 4 discrete channels, but you will need a thirdparty software to control them (Wirecast or similar). -Hyperdeck studio 4K or Hyperdeck studio pro do not have 4 HDMI input and it is not certified for live streaming. It will only accept dual-link SDI for 4K but they do not have descrete channels. - I do not think the intensity Pro as a valid option for you, becouse of the input limitations. -Hyperdeck Studio or Pro are recording devices and they do not have any livestream capability. However you can loop through them, so that you can capture the ATEM output as well as distribute the signal to your DL Quad. (Please have a look to the Hyperdeck Shuttle)."

andrevanberlo

@kavadni : Thanks! Awesome that the ATEM can do that, some discussions on the ATEM led me to think that having multiple pictures in 1 frame was impossible with that device and that switching views was the only thing possible.

So the Decklink quad might be a possibility but will be way more expensive due to the extra HDMI-HDSDI convertors (i've seen the prices and they gave me quite a scare). Also the computer would have to handle all processes where the ATEM would handle a lot of things itself (streaming related). the Quad+Convertors+Wirecast would add up to $2,5K-3K
HDSDI cameras are no option at this point, just bought me those GH3's :-)
With the ATEM alone i could do the streaming the way i would like (split screen with all camera's), software is include with the ATEM. I would possibly need HDMI splitters (or videohub) to send a second signal from each camera to the computer. So I would also need a soundcard with 4 hdmi inputs to be able to record all 4 cameras hdmi's. Another possibility would be to just do incamera recording and use the ATEM for streaming (someone suggested that once), in that case all i would need would be the ATEM + hdmi cables and i would be ready to go... that would be $995
Another would be 3 intensity pro cards which each have an HDMI input, no video hub would be needed (i think) and could mean that an all software solution would be possible without the convertors. $597(3xintensitypro)+$500(wirecast)=$1097,-

The last would enable me to record HDMI+being able to do the streaming. Only question is if that last solution would really work.

Would you suggest ATEM for broadcasting (and use software that comes with it), use HDMI splitters to send HDMI's to the intensitypro's?

Should i want to use a videohub/interface, which one would you recommend for my setup (using 4 cams max)

I really appreciate the input, i feel i'm finally getting where i need to go!

EDIT: i saw 3 HD-SDI outputs on the ATEM studio,... does that mean I could route my hdmi signals from my cameras via the ATEM to my computer should it have 3 HD-SDI inputs? Would i be able to utilize that and record 3 streams at once on my Mac? Or doesn't it work like that...

"The ATEM TVS can do that (I watched until halfway through) The moving guitars are two camera framed as shown with a wipe. The lower third graphic would be the USK (upstream Key) The upper third graphic would be one of two DSK (downstream Key) A video hub/router has multiple inputs and outputs ... in my case 16 of each. An example of usage would be to send input 1 (camera 1) to both output 1 and output 7, giving you an ISO to record and an input to the switcher. I would suggest in this instance using stream to refer to what you send to the Net, to avoid confusion. The Decklink Quad looks like a possible solution, however I am skeptical of software only solutions - Remember it's HDSDI which will mean you will need HDMI-HDSDI converters, which will double the cost of the card quad card. Or you can get HDSDI cameras. Because I am skeptical of software only solutions, does not mean they won't work."

kavadni

@andrevanberio

The ATEM TVS can do that (I watched until halfway through)

The moving guitars are two camera framed as shown with a wipe.
The lower third graphic would be the USK (upstream Key)
The upper third graphic would be one of two DSK (downstream Key)

A video hub/router has multiple inputs and outputs ... in my case 16 of each.
An example of usage would be to send input 1 (camera 1) to both output 1 and output 7, giving you an ISO to record and an input to the switcher.

I would suggest in this instance using stream to refer to what you send to the Net, to avoid confusion.

The Decklink Quad looks like a possible solution, however I am skeptical of software only solutions - Remember it's HDSDI which will mean you will need HDMI-HDSDI converters, which will double the cost of the card quad card. Or you can get HDSDI cameras.

Because I am skeptical of software only solutions, does not mean they won't work.

andrevanberlo

"I am little confused by your use of 'stream' ... for me, that is what you send to the internet. When you say 2 streams, do you mean two separate streams to the net of say 2 cameras? Or do you mean a single stream with a split screen or picture-in-picture of 2 cameras?"

i understand the confusion, i get confused all the time, probably because i'm more an "audio-man" than video... (although that is changing rapidly these days...)

What i mean is 1 stream to the net containing the footage of 3-4 camera's at the same time. I guess that is picture in picture or a single stream with a split screen.

I would like to stream something like this in a live setting adding 1 or 2 cams (total of 4) for the overview shots:

When i'm not streaming live i would like to be able to use the same device to channel the hdmi outputs to my computer so i can record the HDMI onto SSD on my mac for editing. It would also be nice to do that during the live streaming so i can use all that material for post production.

I'm sorry if i'm unclear sometimes in my questions and aswers. A lot of things are still kinda new to me and as i'm audio productions and web development (minor) as well I have to know too many things at the same time...

(i'm really happy you're trying to help me out to get it right!)

kavadni

@andrevanberio

I am little confused by your use of 'stream' ... for me, that is what you send to the internet.
When you say 2 streams, do you mean two separate streams to the net of say 2 cameras?
Or do you mean a single stream with a split screen or picture-in-picture of 2 cameras?

andrevanberlo

@kavadni Thanks for your input!

1st: awesome studio you are building! just saw the pictures, wow, that's what i want for myself when i have the chance (and money)...

about the views: i know you can have an overview of all incoming streams but is it possible to put out 2 streams or more at the same time presenting a split screen to the viewers of lets say a wide shot and a closeup of something?

about sound: so when i use in-camera audio only i don't need to delay, but when using my RME fireface for audio input I will have to use an audio delay unit like that src2496. (or perhaps it can be done with the RME, i haven't looked into that yet)

I guess when using the GH2 that has no audio through the HDMI setting the delay properly is a matter of trial and error i guess. hopefully the delay is the same for both GH2 and GH3...

"my thoughts would be all camera inputs into a video hub for a split to the ATEM TVS and feeding multiple stream devices"

I'm not sure if i follow you here, do you mean that i put the HDMI outs in the video hub, route from there to multiple ATEM studio's? What would be the added benefit? (sorry if i misunderstood your idea!)

I also thought out this as a possibility: Decklink Quad in combination with wirecast, I could feed 4 HDMI inputs into that Quad and use Wirecasts software to handle the streaming part. I was told though that i would need a very powerful Mac to handle this, minimum 8 cores...

kavadni

Also, if I was wanting to send multiple streams ... my thoughts would be all camera inputs into a video hub for a split to the ATEM TVS and feeding multiple stream devices

kavadni

@andrevanberio

Re Atem TV Studio

Isn't the multiview a way to be able to show 2 camera streams at the same time with the ATEM?

It always displays the 8 inputs, preview and program.

I also read somewhere that you need to delay the audio to be in sync with video, dont know how that would work when using external audio as i will be using the rme fireface for audio.

Correct, I use Beringer src2496. You can alternatively input sound via the audio inputs on a camera, and the ATEM gives the correct delay. Not an option if using only GH2 - no audio over hdmi.

andrevanberlo

@klem007 looks good!

klem007

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/6184/live-streaming-with-teradek/p1

andrevanberlo

@CRFilms i dont know that hardware, i'll checkt it out!

In the mean time someone at creative cow brought me to the idea of using the BMD decklink quad as it has 4 seperate ins and outs it can be used with wirecast but the card should also work with fcpx with rendering. It would need a beefy mac though...

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