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Black Magic: Official $1,995 raw cinema camera topic, series 2
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  • The BMC is not a good spontaneous shooter. I wouldn't use it in the same way i'd use a normal Video camera doing live events and such. With preparation and care you can avoid a lot of Moire issues. I still think this Moire thing is a bit overblown. There's been so much footage shown that doesn't show a ton of moire. Yes it's there but not always in a way that is distracting. The small amount that is there is what we're looking to try and mitigate. I hope one day to have the funds to upgrade to a BMC and hopefully by then there will be some solutions.

    I think overall they made some curious choices in design that they can address in a new version down the line, however, this model is still quite a beast in terms of IQ. I personally wish it had the form factor of the C300. That seems to be the best merging of the DSLR and a Video Cam IMO. A BMC with that kind of form factor would be unreal.

  • You can't compensate by charging by the hour if someone with a camera without obvious moiré is charging similar levels as you do…

  • @nomad, charge by the hour, for extra post. Seriously, other than an OLPF add on at the sensor level, it was said on another forum that Tiffen are designing some new combined filters. Quote of a quote (hearsay?):

    "As for the BMC we will be showing the New IR VARIABLE ND at NAB. Plus a wide range of IRND combined with Diffusion filters, such as IRND Black ProMist, IRND Digital Diffusion FX and IRND GlimmerGlass. So the options of how you creatively add a forward OLPF of some description as to say has now increased and is down to you." Carey Duffy, MPTV Filter Group Consultant, Tiffen International Ltd.

    Don't quote me on that!

    The good thing with combined filters in one, you may only need one filter in some cases, or perhaps only two, instead of a bigger stack, which may be problematic for wider lenses, etc.

  • A Black Pro-Mist helps to some degree, at least it did on a Canon 5D.

    The main problem, though, is that the effect of any filter in front of the lens is influenced by aperture, focal length and lighting. You'll need to balance the softness against moiré for every single shoot. A lot of hazzle!

    And stockings behind the lens are a nice effect, but no safe cure either. If they work at all, they'll be dreamy.

    The best approach as things are now is to keep critical patterns out of focus and monitor full rez. But what can you do when a client is making a statement on screen and insists on wearing his/her clothes with fine, regular pattern?

  • The BMC has detail to spare, so I would think you could use filters or Stockings stretched out over the lens and I think it would still look detailed enough. I would love to see an experiment of that.

  • Interesting, hadn't thought about Pro-Mist filters. It would be nice to see how it works out, it's not a perfect solution but could save a shot. Maybe Black Pro-Mist to avoid such dreamy look? Though I don't know how it would work out in the end to avoid moiré.

    Hm, too bad none can do a comparison with all pro-mist/black pro-mist filters in different situations where moiré can be a real pain in the ass :( .

  • @nomad, I was thinking the Pro-Mist path as an option for possible reduction of moire issue with various cameras. One of my 4x4 filter sets came with a Pro-Mist 1/2, which is too dreamy for normal and subtle use. Do you have experience with Pro-Mist for moire issues? Do you use a 1/8 or 1/4 to reduce moire effect, while recording an image that is not too dreamy or soft?

    @Aria, yes, those methods in post look promising, however, I am still waiting to see the results in a motion clip, not just the still frames.

  • I've seen enough footage to be relatively confident that you won't always see tons of Moire in every shot. It's not as bad as some are making it out to be. I can understand being sensitive to the fear Moire could ruin a key shot, but I have to say i'm not sure how reasonable that fear is.

    I have seen some Up Rez methods that seem to reduce Moire and Aliasing, which might become a valid path to processing for some. I have to see more evidence, but it looked really good.

  • No decision is perfect. I don't get it why they put in such a sensor and not an OLPF. If Mosaic can make one as an add-on for 400, BM should have been able to put one in for something like 250 in mass production (if you want to call the current flow mass production…). They have enough photocells to generate very decent 1080 quality even with an OLPF. And it would have no effect on the really good DR. BTW, have a look at RAW photographs from our beloved one. Not 13 stops, but far better than it's video.

    A Pro-Mist can help to some degree, but it's not a cure for all cases were moiré might bite you.

  • @Aria "It's a box that takes in light. Pure and simple. Some can accept that and some can't."

    Interesting what you said, cos i've always called it a "Hyperdeck with a sensor". But it's some sensor they have got there, I have not seen DR of the like in many cameras of this price range. Guess no chip is perfect

  • The BMC is extremely sharp and I wonder if anyone has tried using a Pro-Mist filter on it to see if that tamed Moire. I would guess that once the camera is shipping in higher numbers that Mosaic will likely make a filter for it.

  • @nomad It's a cine camera in function. You could pay 4X as much for a Canon "cine" camera and get line skipping, chroma sub-sampling and compression, depending on mode, or some combination of all of the above. Maybe Red and Alexa will give you moire-free recording.

  • I don´t say jello can´t be a problem but I work around it. I try to avoid cameras which are jello sensitive for projects or shots which require something else.

    I don´t mind the lack of LPF. Yet at least. (I haven´t been shooting any brick walls) I like to have good 1:1 resolution w/o sharpening and it´s very difficult to achieve that with a LPF..

    I really, really want the MFT version though!

  • Jello is a problem with the GH2 sometimes as well.

    But regarding moiré I'm complaining why I need at fix at all? This is called a cine camera, it has no reason to respect different resolutions like a photographic/double duty camera. Plus, the GH2 has less chroma moiré, just about equal luma.

  • Jello is no worse than with the gh2, I reiterate what I said before, after my first shoot with the cam. I had 135mm for one shot on a monopod and it was barely useable. Functionality could be better. Shian and many others touch upon that. A simple histogram would do it for me.

    I´d like a simple button / screen lock to be added (this would be a good feature for most cams!). I accidentally recorded a few mins of raw in a shoulder bag when moving between angles. A longer "take" and it could have fucked the day.

    Pictures are absolutely beautiful!

  • what settings are you guys using for low light? because I've had some pretty noisy footage I guess from over cranking. I'm guessing you guys are shooting it somewhat dark and then boosting in post?

  • @nomad why would the moire be worse to fix with a BMCC than it is with any EOS? It should be better, albeit annoying of course, because it won't have mosquito noise and all kinds of other nastiness mixed in with the moire. It's pretty trivial to get rid of it with 7D footage, I know from experience.

  • It is remarkably good in low-light for it's sensor size. It has a fantastic DR for the price.

    It has massive "jello" and it can show massive chroma moiré. I don't really get why they omitted the OLPF, it has enough photocells to get close to a RED shooting at 3K HD, which has conservative filtering, hardly ever shows moiré and resolves HDTV just fine, is a bit worse in low-light, BTW, but has far less jello.

    The only reason for omission of the OLPF I can imagine is cost. So, some folks will stick Mosaic filters into their BMCCs for about 400 bucks not to be bitten by moiré on a clients shirt or the like.

  • i have mine for 2 months now. still surprises me on how good it looks on lowlight

    heres something i dislike though, accidentally touching the screen brings up the slate menu. annoying.

  • UGH! @L1N3ARX I am so jealous right now. That is the look i've fallen in love with. Not so much one look but being able to really mold it into just about any look you want but with a convincing level of quality to he image. Even just the ProRes! It's just gorgeous IMO.

  • Well I've had it for about a week now... and I can safely say that I'm in love. Didn't think I could love a camera... but I do. It's kind of one of those things where you have to use it and see your own footage to really get into it. On paper... there's quite a few limitations and imperfections and is certainly not everyone's cup of tea.

    If you're a hands on person, and like to "craft" the image into exactly what you want then this is the camera to use. The log footage simply transforms into whatever it is you want it to be with simple grading... it really is amazing. Anyhow... just a few simple tests trying out the camera.

  • @aria

    I agree, it has it's issues, but the image is undeniable, and untouchable by any camera in that price range. IMO also

  • BMC isn't a perfect Video camera and won't be for everyone. They seem to have sacrificed a lot of pure video centric features in order to keep the price down. It's a box that takes in light. Pure and simple. Some can accept that and some can't. IMO From what i've seen of the BEST BMC footage, NONE of the cameras in it's price range look anything like it. For me personally the final product is the biggest issue! It's simple. Don't shake the camera around like a salt shaker and Expose the damn thing to the right and I see very few problems. The damn thing looks gorgeous when used properly. From what i've seen of it's exactly the look i'm looking for. It's just not the most ergonomic or fully functional video camera out there.

  • @GravitateMediaGroup, false color is a feature on some cameras/monitors that maps exposure information over the top of the image in the form of color overlays. This way you can see while looking at the image what areas are over/under/properly exposed and identify problems in a different way than looking at zebras or a histogram.