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New RAW / 4k / 2k / Prores / DNxHD camera
  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    These prices are all for full frame cameras (36x24mm sensor) that would offer the ability to set shutter speed, fps, iso, aspect ratio, and color temp. It would not have a lens mount but you could add any epic style lens mount for non-electronic control ex. longvalleyequip.com nikon mount at $400

    1) 4k RAW: 14,000 (original listed price of 10,000 was a typo) Brain $4000 Recorder $10,000 SSD media $750/256GB

    2) 4k Prores: $8,000 Brain: $4000 Recorder $4000 price TBD

    3) 1080 Prores: $5500 Brain $4000 Recorder $1500 off the shelf SSD

    4) 1080 DNxHD/quicktime MOS: $4500 Brain $4000 Recorder: $500 off the shelf SSD

    There would be no option for h.264 and an external battery solution would be required ranging from v mount on the high end to sony batteries on the low end. Also, the low end cameras would all be capable of upgrading to the high end solution for a cost.

    All cameras come with a 1 year manufacturers warranty

  • 69 Replies sorted by
  • fatpigfatpig

    are you talking about development or rental of cameras?

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    Purchase of camera

  • fatpigfatpig

    so tell us the names :)

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    What if each was 1000 more

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    Also consider that these cameras would be one in the same

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @peterosinski

    It is cryptic post :-)

    4k RAW / 4k prores / 2k prores - $10,000 + SSD drives at $750/256GB

    This looks quite bad. Especially SSD prices.

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    I edited the title. To clarify, the idea is to have a modular camera that can give you anything from 1080p Prores / DNxHD up to 4k RAW which will most likely be in cinema DNG.

    The costs of the final system are $100% dependent on what you choose to record. Notice the steep drop in price when you go from 4k RAW to 4k prores. The main reason behind this is that you can use a much slower SSD to record 4k prores (330mbs i think) than is required for 4k RAW which is more in the range of 133MB/s just for 24fps).

    The point of this post is to see if people would be interested in something with those specs. I will edit my first post to match the specs I will list below:

    1) 4k RAW: 14,000 (original listed price of 10,000 was a typo) Brain $4000 Recorder $10,000 SSD media $750/256GB

    2) 4k Prores: $8,000 Brain: $4000 Recorder $4000 price TBD

    3) 1080 Prores: $5500 Brain $4000 Recorder $1500 off the shelf SSD

    4) 1080 DNxHD/quicktime MOS: $4500 Brain $4000 Recorder: $500 off the shelf SSD

    These would be the starting options. The brain is the same for all cameras and you would purchase a recorder based on your needs. 4k recorders will also have 2k capability included, but if you do not need you could just get a 2k recorder and then later buy a 4k recorder when you need it.

    So a single camera that can range from 4k RAW @ 14,000 to 1080p @ $4500. Furthermore there would be nothing to stop you from buying the HD version and renting the 4k recorder when needed. All of these cameras are priced without lens mounts or batteries.

    So, who out there would be interested in the first professional quality, scalable, modular, full frame digital cinema camera? What do you think of the prices? I will tell you that this would be in a way an open source project so some of the pricing is out of my control.

  • stipstip

    Purchase of camera

    what are you trying to do here? Don't get it.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Why recorder price and media prices are so big?

    I think that this area will be next step for major manufacturers.

    They now have all the required things, just not the raw and ProRes recording.

    If you ask me, make ONE camera, with focus on raw only.

    If you'll make proper raw compression it'll work on good stock 2.5" hdd even for 4k 60fps.

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    I have been talking to some manufacturers about designing a new camera. I can't say much about it but what I can say is that the inspiration behind this camera is my desire as a filmmaker to have a high quality full frame digital cinema camera (because honestly the d800/5d3/d600/a99/vg900/6d arent doing it for me). The recorders we will be using already exist so I can't change prices there but the nice thing is that you get to choose between around 10 different recorders based on the resolution and codec you want.

    We aren't trying to reinvent the wheel here. Just create a basic camera system that includes things that everyone wants, but doesn't require you to pay for things you don't need.

    The brain of the camera stays unchanged. Besides that you will pick the following:

    lens mount recorder (resolution/compression) external battery system rig

    Oh and we hope to have super35 crop and selectable aspect ratios available. I am waiting to hear back on development cost and unit price.

    This is my go-to forum for camera discussion so i thought i'd throw out the idea here and see what people think.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    People can say different things, but trouble is that it requires big skill and very big money to actually do something.

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    Well, I dont have to worry about skill. The manufacturer I am discussing this with produced a camera that does almost exactly what I am describing now, but back in 2000 for NASA. The only problem is that they haven't made on in 10 years and the electronics are outdated. If they could do it back then they could certainly do it now.

    My question was that if this was an option would people be interested?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    If they could do it back then they could certainly do it now.

    Why you are so sure?

    Plus someone must pay for all the process (and this is hundreds and hundreds of thousands).

    Btw you can make very good recorder and compressor just using new small motherboards from Intel coupled with good general CPU.

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    Like I said, the recorder is taken care of. As for the manufacturer, they specialize in custom camera design, most of which is for scientific use.

    How about this vitaliy, seeing as how you are the only one responding in this thread why don't you answer me this question. If you could buy a camera today with the specs I've listed while considering what is already on the market and the price would this be something you would want?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @peterosinski

    I don't want anything that can't shoot 4K 60fps raw compressed, 2k 120fps in raw compressed, and that don't use stock SSDs, and cost >$4000.

    It is clear that we'll see similar camera quite soon.

  • stipstip

    so, all you have is 'this idea'. And a manufacturer that made something for NASA 10 years ago, which back then could already do 4K on a full frame sensor. Sure. Probably also Prores and DNxHD before it even got developed. But it's good to know that all these cameras come with a 1 year warranty. :)

  • hedroxhedrox

    I think that people here are mostly DSLR shooters wich want best bang for buck, and cameras with such prices are mostly out of our price range.. people talk too much about 4k/5k stuff and when it comes to shooting they won´t even shoot raw, they are ok with prores and 1080p like on the blackmagic camera..
    and you will have it very hard like a new company, I wouldn´t be risking paying 14k for camera with specs maybe like nex fs700 or scarlet..

    If I was developing a camera, I would look for film S35 senzor size, good DR (13stops would be ok), 3k raw , modular like RED, open sofware ,with every plug that filmmaker needs, and for the cheapest price (under 4k if it´s possible) I would even go to wifi recording if it´s possible to do.. 1day of shooting with the epic= 1TB of storage data, think about what type of filmmakers you want to target with it.. I think good compression is really one of the key things here.. look at the blackmagic camera.. no compression, no slowmo, built in batteries, not modular, no HDMI, no xlr , no waveform or histograms , no built in NDs but yes overall a sweet camera that almost everybody wants

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    It's amazing how hard it is to get an answer to a hypothetical question. The manufacturer told me they offer a 1 year warranty on all products so I just thought I'd include that little bit of information.

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    Thank you hedrox. The type of person you are describing sounds like they would be in the range of the 1080p Prores version.

    Seeing as how the vg-900 is the only non dslr full frame camera you can get, don't you think a $5k HD full frame prores cam would have interest?

  • thepalaliasthepalalias

    @peterosinski I think one thing to keep in mind is that most succesful new entrants into the such markets have had to consider their competition and use disruptive pricing/features.

    The pricing at the high end means this camera would be most directly compared to the 1DC and the RED-Scarlet (with the former using a 4K crop from the full-frame sesnor).

    Could you talk for a moment about how/why you feel someone should choose the concept of your product instead and what it offers that would make it worth it to someone to invest in a new player? That sort of simple summary perspective (with comment on the comp etition)will be most helpful in getting the feedback you want.

    EDIT: I see you got started on that while I typed but keep going. :)

  • hedroxhedrox

    well, it is hard to say, everyone is interested in something else, if I would have to speak for myself, I don´t see a big market in FF camera that shoots only prores..

    speaking for myself, when you shoot on FF (still) you have to be at T4-T-5,6 for moving objects if you don´t want to hunt focus up and down every second.. that makes film S35mm senzors better for low light work, I don´t need to bump up the iso , I just stop it to T2,8-T4 or with the gh2 T2-T2,8 and I´m fine , samyang cine lenses or slrmagic cinelenses could be good for S35mm camera.. It looks like you love the FF look, but it´s all achievable also with smaller senzors, for me price is more important than senzor size, everything same or bigger than blackmagic senzor is fine with me

    and for your question, the vg900 is for me not interesting camera, and I don´t see big market in such a camera.. you have also options for uncompressed video via D800/D600/A99 ... for me.. raw video and price are more important than FF senzor.. I also have feeling that the video from VG900 is nothing revolutionary, same as A99

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    A couple of reasons:

    1) It will be the first high quality full frame digital cinema camera available
    3) 24, 25, 30, 48fps
    2) s35mm crop for use with existing cinema lenses
    3) Choose your recorder so that you are only paying for what you need right now
    4) choose your lens mount (using already available lens mounts) so that you are not locked into one brand
    5) 1080p RGB output + 4k RAW output so that you can upgrade to a 4k recorder when you need to,
    6) Keep in mind all prices are approximate. Brain cost may come down. Either way you are looking at:
    $ 10k+ for 4k RAW (competes with scarlet in price and outperforms on fps at 4k)
    $6k+ for 4k prores (competes with 12,000 1d-c but with better form factor and codec, and fs700 which is $8,000 before purchasing 4k recording option)
    $4k+ for for 1080 prores which competes with bmcc, 5d3, vg-900, fs100, c100, af-100, none of which offer both prores internally and a full frame sensor or scalability to 4k

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    @hedrox

    I do not love the FF look but want the option for it. I will be able to fully use the fov of my existing nikons which is a motivating factor as well as more easily getting shallow dof in wide shots specifically (but only if thats what the shot calls for).

    The d600 has non-working hdmi output for recording, d800 shows posterization in hdmi out recordings, and the a99 will not take most lenses.

    Dont forget this camera will give you the use of your leica, canon fd, nikon, pl, and whatever other mount lenses you want. In addition I said my camera would offer a s35 crop for those people or situations where it is needed

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    24, 25, 30, 48fps

    60fps is really a must as many shoot for TVs and internet now.

    Choose your recorder so that you are only paying for what you need right now

    Good idea, trouble is.. price.

    choose your lens mount (using already available lens mounts) so that you are not locked into one brand

    See trouble. For me, E-mount is all that is required. Adapters for all else.

    To be short, to talk about prices you need good calculations and business plan. Most probably, in reality it'll be all higher. And competition in the release time can even prevent release totally.

  • peterosinskipeterosinski

    @vitaliy_kiselev the problem with emount is that it is weaker than a dedicated lens mount

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