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Firmware hack for Canon Vixia Legria?
  • StearsStears

    Hello GUYS!

    Can You write firmware hacks for canon vixia/legria camcoder models?

    All professional camera/camcorder tests show (resolution charts like ISO 12233 Test Chart) that most consumer camcorders can record videos with higher real resolution (lw/ph horizontal and lw/ph vertical) than the best DSLR cameras. Moreover consumer camcorders are are more popular in the market.

    See resolution/sharpness tests of www.camcorderinfo.com !

    Thank you!

  • 38 Replies sorted by
  • AriaAria

    Agreed that there are some really sharp small chip cams but I don't understand what the end game is here. Even if I got a higher bitrate for my Vixia it still would have the same limitations of a camcorder. I wouldn't be able to change lenses and get the exact look I can get with the vast array of lens options I can with my GH. Unless I'm shooting nothing but architecture and landscapes, which I don't, that extra sharpness isn't worth the limits.

    The Vixia is more convenient but even if I had more rez I wouldn't say it gave me more creative options and that's the beauty of DSLRS. It's not just about ultimate sharpness/resolution. My Vixia image is a bit sterile in comparison tho it has it's value for me in certain instances.

  • duchduch

    @Stears > we all know what you're pointing out.

    You said earlier "perhaps the best solution is a large perfectly 1920*1080 pixel sensor". Yep, it is, get a Sony PMW-F3 if that's what you want. You'll get every bit of detail you can squeeze out of 1080, down to the last vertical line. Guaranteed from use.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @Stears

    I warned you about posting same things again and again.

  • StearsStears

    Guys, Utmost all DSLR cameras have worse real (optical) video resolution (LW/PH) than Flag-ship consumer camcorders. Please check it in www.camcorderinfo.com. And please compare DSLR cameras with camcorders, which were designed produced in the same year!

  • DrDaveDrDave

    If you want really sharp, go for the GH2 with the Olly 45mm :) The Canon is what I would call "sharp enough". I do a lot of work with things that cause stair-stepping, so for me the sharpness is less important than the skin color and the aliasing. Low light is indeed good, but not miraculous--try before buy. Anyway, they are all cheap, basically, for what you get.

  • DrDaveDrDave

    Aliasing, color, focus tracking, smoothness at 24p and zoom all better on my Canon G10; sharpness slightly better on the GH2, no question. DOF, lenses, etc. Would I like to turn an $400 M400 into a G10 or better yet, a high bitrate G10? Holy cow!!!!! yuppers.

  • Mark_the_HarpMark_the_Harp

    @subco I'm tempted certainly to replace my Canon XHA1 machines with something like this - to have in addition to my GH2.

    But it does really depend on what you're shooting. I like the form factor / ease of use of camcorders and even here at home the other day, when I lit and shot a piece to camera for a project, I used an XHA1 over my hacked GH2. Not that the GH2 doesn't produce much better pictures, but to be honest it's not as easy to use (besides, the location material had been shot on the XHA1 and I needed it to match).

    Why use an older camcorder on location in preference to the GH2? Because the camera person had to grab footage with the minimum wasted frames in a fast-moving environment among a group of 35 people moving around in a room, with good on-board sync sound and over a period of 3 hours, and the GH2 couldn't have done this without loads of add-ons. In good light, a camcorder like this, which records at 25mbps CBR, is still "OK" in image quality (not as good as the GH2) but crucially, has excellent OIS and a 20:1 zoom ratio and built-in XLR / 48v inputs. Plus, it's big enough to not knock over if accidentally left unattended for a few seconds. Hence why I chose it over the GH2. If I'd had something like the HC-X900 I'd have used that, again in preference to the GH2.

    I think the GH2 is amazing and I love this camera, but if you need to get the max amount of useable footage in a situation like the above, the GH2 isn't in my opinion the best choice and something like the HC-X900 may suit better.

    Or better still, get both?

  • AriaAria

    If you're looking to build up some quality Lenses for a GH, i'd suggest looking at Minolta Rokkor-X lenses. They're small, good quality and cheap. You can get a 50mm f1.4 for way below $100.00. I paid about $50 for mine. There are also so great Vivtars for that system. Old Nikon D lenses are also a great bargain. I think the benefits of a GH outweigh the supposed cost of building out what you need if you're smart about spending.

  • peternappeternap

    @ stears To hack something you need to have this first." Do you think about the hardware (camcorder/camera) or the firmware file?

    I think what he was saying was that he needed a camcorder, time and motivation....

    I PM'ed him about a hack recently which he wasn't especially interested in...but I was prepared to give him a camera to hack.

    I doubt he's made out of money or time and what he's accomplished so far is incredible, but if he's not interested, he has no motivation.

  • AriaAria

    My one problem with camcorders is the lens which limits you and is not consistently good across its entire range. It also doesn't allow for the Artistic range I can get with my GH13. I've been collecting old Minolta Rokkor-X lenses and it's been a blast :). These Primes have their own unique look and that is a HUGE part of the appeal.

    Any rez test of a DSLR will be effected by the lens you use. Better lens with high Rez in mind will give u very good results while also giving a more filmic quality. My Vixia does not look as good at the long end and that's a consideration as well.

    The Hack issue remains. What do you need from a hack??? Higher bitrate? Some other missing or limited feature?

  • chauncychauncy

    I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish. You quote results from tests from two different sources that have nothing in common but a chart. The data isn't valid because it's from different testers. Who knows what each did.

    Clearly you also have no idea how big of a deal hacking a firmware is. No one will spend time on a fixed lense consumer camcorder. It's not worth it becase you cannot build out the camera with other lenses and gear.

    If you're so in love with the tm900 or vixia or whatever then use it.

    But enough with the image in tm900 or vixia is better than the gh2 in this one chart test two different guys did. The camera isn't in the same league. It's too limited in what it can do

    But in the right conditions it can take nice video.

    So use it. But hacking a firmware is a massive job. We lucked out becuase of V and his knowledge. Buy the best camera you can afford without a hack. If one comes along, great. But V's already said he won't do it for this, so respect that.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Do you think about the hardware (camcorder/camera) or the firmware file?

    How do you think yourself?

  • StearsStears

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev "To hack something you need to have this first." Do you think about the hardware (camcorder/camera) or the firmware file?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Is the hacking of a camcorder-firmware more difficult than a firmware-hack of a DSLR camera?

    To hack something you need to have this first. And your question is so general that it became impossible to answer.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @Stears

    I specially warned you to not go in circles.

  • StearsStears

    My question: Is the hacking of a camcorder-firmware more difficult than a firmware-hack of a DSLR camera? Which softwares/hex editors are good to create/edit such a firmware?

  • Mark_the_HarpMark_the_Harp

    @Stears Interesting point about downsampling the sensor. I also downloaded the video of the HC900X from the vimeo (don't know how that compares to TM700) and played with that. It's in 50p so you can do a nice slowdown to 25p. Resolution looks good. The only thing really is that you are more limited because you are stuck with the lens that's provided. But yes, nice images and for some reason my Sony Vegas / 6-core 3930K seems to play nicely with the mts files it produces.

  • StearsStears

    @Mark_the_Harp

    The good picture quality of high pixelcount video-sensors was nothing more than a wide-spread urban legend/gossip, whithout any scientific background. I heard and read it many times in the last 10 years, but it doesn't change the fact, that it is not more than a wide-spread hebetate gossip. Real professionals, like engineers and official sites of that factories/firms have never stated such gossips.

    Nowadays (2011-2012) the downgrade the amount of sensor pixels in professional camcorders is a trend for good video resolution. Perhabs the best solution is a large perfectly 1920*1080 pixel sensor, because there are more amount of light sweep the pohotraster, and therefore it induces stronger electric signal/pixel. There is no need image resize tranformation processes/algorithms which further downgrade the video quality.

    GH2 DATA (ISO resolution test chart 12233)

    On the resolution front : Camera / Mode/ Vert / Horiz lines / picture height from ISO 12233 chart. (Shot at optimum aperture) LW/PH GH2 / Cin24 / 780 / 800 GH2 / 1080i / 550 / 800 GH2 / 720p / 600 / 650 HMC / 1080p24 / 600 / 650 HMC / 720p24 / 550 / 550

    Old AVCHD camcorder: Panasonic HDC-TM700

    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM700-Camcorder-Review-37681/Sharpness-Performance.htm

    The camcorder measured a horizontal sharpness of 1000 lw/ph and a vertical sharpness of 900 lw/ph.

  • Mark_the_HarpMark_the_Harp

    For anyone curious, I had a romp around vimeo to look for some native footage to download. Here's an example:

    https://vimeo.com/groups/native1920x108060pclips/videos/36558556

    Download the 1920x1080 file to see the original.

    The raw video coming out of this is certainly impressive, and definitely more impressive than my XHA1 camcorders, which are now getting old and looking distinctly furry compared with the GH2. I guess it could be a really useful replacement for those (for me) but I definitely wouldn't replace my GH2. It's nice to have both - what you gain in convenience with a camcorder you lose (IMO) in image quality, so @Stears I don't think it's "just" about resolution, as @chauncy also says above. But nice to have been prompted to have a look at the tm900.

  • chauncychauncy

    @stears I think you're confused. Sharpness is a tiny part of a quality image. You seem to be basing all your conclusions on the price of high end comsumer camcorders and a sharpness test at camorder info.

    To the first- while a gh2 body may be cheaper than these camcorders, an equipped GH2 is way more expensive. It needs multiple lens and a fair amount of other equipment to be truely useable. A camcorder doesn't.

    To the second- a DSLR's sensor is several times the size of what's in a camcorder. In theroy at least, that means a lot more as far as a quality final image goes then a sharpness test.

    If I wanted a supersharp image out a gh2, I could get it with the right lens, lighting, sharpening in post, etc. I don't. I want it to look organic not machined.

    I'd love to have a tm900 for it's ease of use, good image, endless list of features, 60p, etc. But claiming its mage quality is better than a GH2 based on single non real world chart based sharpness test is a fallacy.

  • AriaAria

    @Stears, I still don't see a list of what features you wish to see added to your Camcorder. I don't see the value of arguing the superiority of Camcorder Rez over DSLR. Thousands of DSLR Videographers aren't put off by the rez of their cams. There's WAY more to the look of the video than the rez, so again I want to know what in particular do you want to see improved in your camcorder that a hack would solve?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @Stears

    I think all here got your position long time ago.
    No need to go in circles.

  • StearsStears

    Less real (optically visible) resolution means less detail and less fine picture. DLR cameras were very good with their 600*600 pixel real optical resolutions in the era of mpeg2 HDV (miniDV) camcorders. However AVCHD camcorders surpassed them in video quality. Higher resolution sensor doesn't mean more detail (pixel) in video picture. Why? Because picture resize algorythms have not enough good quality. All ISO chart tests show that.

    The size of one pixel in a high resolution pixel of a DSLR cameras are signifficantly smaller than the pixel size of a camcorder sensor. Forexample a 1/3 inch 20M.pixel DSLR-sensor have smaller pixel size than a 1/3 inch 4 M.pixel camcorder sensor. Little sensor pixel means more noise.

  • AriaAria

    @Stears, I do realize that those small chip HD cams have some high Rez stats, but what sold me on the GH2 was a resolution comparison of a live shot between the GH2 and other top S35 Cams. The GH2 was right up there with a C300. Close enough that it really didn't seem that far off at all and surely enough to satisfy my needs.

    There are other factors beside Rez. I think having a Camcorder is a handy part of a tool kit tho and the IQ from them is pretty darned high. I don't know why someone wouldn't just hook up a Black Magic Hyperdeck to their Camcorder and gain a higher bit rate if they felt that it would be beneficial. They're actually reasonably affordable and you wouldn't have to wait on a hack, that may never come.

  • StearsStears

    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM900-Camcorder-Review.htm

    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/News/Panasonic-launches-X900-flagship-prosumer-camcorder.htm

    Did you read their sharpness tests?

    Average 19201080 video of the DSLR cameras can produce only 600700 pixel real (optical) resolution in the ISO charts.

    Panasonic camcorders can produce 1000 * 900 pixel videos in full HD (1920*1080 mode)

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