Need Some Advice from Experienced Sounds Guys

taaltrek

I just recently received a job from my college. They want me to shoot a series of 1 minute interviews focusing on the students and the experience that our college offers. I've had one job as a DP for a small budget locally produced film and I feel comfortable filming the interviews but I'm really lost when it comes to sound. I need to record decent sound from the subjects (indoors and outdoors). I'd like to keep the budget below $1000 and preferably below $500. My question is, should I buy an external recorder (zoom h1 or H4 or tascam DR-100) or just run a lavaliere straight into the camera? I won't have a second person with me to fiddle with the sound equipment so my solution needs to be fairly simple (I do have plural eyes but if I could avoid syncing the sound in post that would be nice). If you have a recommendation please be specific. I've been researching quite a bit but I have not been able to make a decisions. Some people tell me I'll get something that's just fine with a $35 ATR-3350 and others tell me I should spend $350 on a Tascam Dr-100 and another $500 on a good Lav. I'm only getting paid $2000 for the whole project and I would like to end up with some profit so I'm trying to keep the budget low. I can't hire someone else to do sound because there will be 10 interviews that will be spaced out over a series of months so I'd rather not spend $100 to get sound for each interview. Anyway, any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

jodydb

Coming into video after audio, I always use an external device to record audio. They will let you monitor better and record better sound. After much debate i got a sony pcm-m10 for run-n-gun use. I've used side by side with the zoom h4 and it stands outs, battery life is a plus as well. The onboard mics are useable if needed and the menu system is easy to learn and navigate. Its not difficult to sync sound and you can get a cheap hotshoe adapter to mount them all right on your camera. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&sku=638090&is=REG&A=details&Q=

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330692366108?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_2763wt_1398

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270858043629?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_3143wt_1398 (230$)

I wanted a small microphone and ended up with the sennheiser mke400 after much experimenting and it works great. (240$ w/ rycote wind jammer). http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/534023-REG/Sennheiser_MKE_400_MKE_400_Compact_Video.html

For headphones/cans, the cheap 20$ sennheiser 201s will work- they will break and dont last forever. The Sony Sony MDRV700DJ folds nice and take beatings but run around 90$ as well as the Sennheiser HD-280 which fold as well for around 90$. headphone.com has great IN-DEPTH reviews for all types and applications. I would not skimp on cans, get a nice pair, you'll enjoy your ears not hearing, hearing the sound accurately and they will last.

http://www.headphone.com/selection-guide/top-picks/10-best-headphones.php

For Lavs in lower budgets, Audio Technica models are a solid choice. I would download a free DAW, like studio one which was posted a few days ago on here, and free plugins (google for them) and work the audio before putting it with the video. Alot of people dont know how easy it is to a run white/pink noise filter, EQ and basic compression to get a recording from lav/or shotgun to sound tremendously better.

I got mine from Ebay and saved around 100 all around. If you can wait rode is releasing a the VideoMic HD with a nice capsule and recorder built in sometime this year that looks very promising.

balazer

I just ordered an AT875R short shotgun mic, which is supposed to be able to work directly connected to the GH2, despite the GH2 providing a lower voltage than the mic is spec'ed for. I'll let you know how it works in a week or so. From the samples I've heard, it's a good mic. From 4 feet away, it's better than a lavalier. You can mount it right on the camera with a shock mount, or mount it on a tripod or mic stand.

I have a Sennheiser MKE-400. The audio is fine, but the shock mount is inadequate for handheld work. The AT875R costs less and is supposed to be better, though it's bigger.

For lavaliers, the Sennheiser ME-2 is supposed to be a good one that can be connected directly to the GH2 or to a recorder like the Zoom H1. The ME-2 is more sensitive than most mics, which is good for the Zoom, which doesn't have a lot of input gain. To connect it to the camera, I think you could get away with an extension cable of maybe 6 or 10 feet, but longer than that is pushing it, and you could pick up interference. If it's not practical to run a cable all the way from the lavalier to the camera, a Zoom H1 in the interviewee's pocket is less costly and more reliable than a wireless transmitter and receiver.

For any handheld mic or mic mounted on a handheld camera, you need a shock mount. For any mic outdoors, you need a fur windshield.

I've done separate audio recording, and the syncing is a pain, even with Plural Eyes. Recording directly into the camera simplifies things a lot, and not having any extra gear between the camera and the mic makes things simpler and lighter. The GH2's internal recording is good enough, in my opinion.

jodydb's got a point about being able to monitor your audio in real time. It's good to know that you don't have wind noise or a bad connection. If the audio absolutely has to be perfect, you absolutely need to monitor it. But if that were the case, you'd absolutely hire a sound guy. ;) For me, if I know I have a good mic, good shock mount, and a good windshield, and it's a good distance away from the subject, and I'm using a good cable, that's good enough for me. I'd rather not mess with the audio while I'm shooting. I'm busy enough just operating the camera. It's fine to preview the audio by plugging the mic into a Zoom, listening through headphones, and then plugging back into the camera to shoot. A camera-mounted mics is less prone to problems than a lavalier is, and has less need for monitoring.

jodydb

some people do have issues with the shock mount on them, I luckly have yet to have an issue. There are better sounding mics for less, esp older ones, but they are large, stick out and could be an issue with a short/wide lens.

http://www.sam-mallery.com/2011/10/the-great-on-camera-mic-shootout-2011/

http://www.digitalphotographywriter.com/2010/07/dslr-camera-microphone-for-videos.html

both have helpful sound reviews

hank

Recording external is best internal recording becomes very fragile setup due to adapter use.plus no earphone jack.rhode got a few budget mics.if u can lay hands on a old minidiscplayer it ll make a good recorder when having to use only one lavier mic. Maybe their a few good smartphone apps u can use external fed lavier with phone ass recording device.plus for short use i d advise u to go to a local cameraequipment rental and hire what need.

ssh

Guys, I am very new to this, please help if you can.

I am looking for a good directional microphone or a small recorder to chase my kids with. The built-in mic picks up my heavy breathing on the run. My voice thunders when I speak and I can barely hear my 2 year old girl over it.

I considered Sennheiser MKE400 and wonder if @balazer had any success with AT875R. What concerns me with on-camera mics is the added hiss I hear in some videos. That might be some SNAFU on shooter's behalf but I want to hear from you if this is something to be worried about.

Another option is to mount a recorder on camera which I would actually prefer. Sony PCM-M10 gets great reviews, but built in mic pickup pattern is listed as omnidirectional, I don't know if it's gonna help me in this scenario. Is something like Zoom H1 better at isolating the subject?

Any solution would do. My budget is ~US$250.

balazer

The AT875R is working very well on my GH2 - a definite step up from the MKE-400. I will post a full write-up in the coming days.

yeehaanow

I would go with a used (or new) sennheiser G2 or G3 Lav system, and an external recorder like the H4n, (or others, they're all pretty close in terms of quality) and get the sony 7506 headphones. They will be handy pieces to have for a long long time. I suggest getting the recorder used, but buy the headphones new. The reason to go with a LAV system is that it is much better at picking up the sound you want, and not the BG noise. You never know where you might do an interview, (water fountain :) Busy office. Wind tunnel. It will work in all situations. Syncing an interview is not that hard, especially since you'll probably have only one or two long takes. I would NOT use any system where you can't monitor the audio you're getting. When it's critical that it be right the first time, don't rely on just the camera meters. This also let's your camera audio be a last resort backup audio/ scratch track if you mess up the recorder track.

svart

I've done this a few times. Use a lav mic and a shotgun at the same time, just in case. Make sure you get the sound you want before you hit record too.

ssh

Thanks! Lavaliers will not work with a two year old. I already have cans (Sony MDR-V900HD). Would external mic raise the noise floor if connected to the camera input?

thepalalias

In regards to the headphone suggestion, I would say it depends on would level of noise isolation you want. The 7506 can easily bleed at high monitoring levels, where the 7509HD would not.

My memory is that the 7509HD was a pretty big step up in sound quality from the V900HD, but you are not going to be mixing, just recording dialog etc. so if the seal is keeping you from getting much bleed, then you could easily stick with those.

External mics do not necessarily raise the floor - it depends on what you connect. The noisefloor of the camera's internal mic at Mic Level 1 in any setting that uses the audio settings I developed (recent GOLGOP versions, Mysteron, Canis Majoris, Sedna, etc.) will be higher than the noisefloor of recording the input with a "dummy" adapter connected to the input jack. That means that potentially an external mic could give a lower noisefloor.

However, this is device specific so you will have to test your chosen device to be sure. I seem to remember the noisefloor could be made lower on the Rode VideoMic Pro than with the internal mic, but I would reference the thread I started on the topic because I have not revisited that topic in a while.

Mark_the_Harp

@ssh (rather than the original poster):

Two year olds... could you find a really tiny clip-on audio recorder of some sort - maybe put in a pocket or attach somewhere on their clothing with a safety-pin, set it going, and retrieve it later on, if they haven't lost or destroyed it by then! I mean, it depends exactly what the situation is, but a mic attached to them in some way is the best way of getting great close sound which you can mix in with more distant sound, or use as-is. Normally with video, we accept quite close sound (if there's a "rule", it is that the sound perspective should be as close as the closest shot), and it can be charming to hear close-miking with children's voices. Almost like hearing their inner thoughts! Also it will pick your voice up, but quite a lot quieter than the child's, and that will sound very acceptable.

Obviously a gun mic might work OK outdoors, but it won't help if children are playing in a noisy, bright, reflective acoustic, especially if there are lots of other children around. At best it will simply tame the acoustic, but it won't have James Bond levels of discrimination, allowing you to home in on a single voice! I say that from reviewing some observational footage shot today as part of an academic study of 1-4 year-olds, where the cameraperson was recording a group of children indoors using a very expensive and very good Sennheiser gun mic. Good sound is really tricky with young children because they tend to be surrounded by other children, and you can't get too close with the mics as that distracts them, hence why I suggest that if you want to record a particular child, you try some sort of tiny clip-on recording device if you can find such a thing (or a wireless mic, as others have suggested). Once they get used to it they'll forget they're wearing it.

But it depends on the situation and you don't mention exactly where this child is (outdoors? With others? Indoors?) so these are only ideas based on what I think you're asking! Without spending a lot of money or effort, I doubt you're likely to get exceptional sound quality, and you then have to ask how realistic or desirable that is in that situation. I mean, with most children, in most locations, a low noise floor is the least of your problems.

One other thing that's worked consistently pretty well in many of our observational videos of groups of children at play indoors, and we used this in a recent series of recordings for a big project awaiting publication at the moment, is to use an H4n or similar, and hide it within a few feet of the children are playing - overhead works quite well, but basically anywhere where it's going to be undisturbed and out of sight of the camera. Children in groups tend to cluster around one location, so it works pretty well in practice. You can then concentrate on getting the shots you want, knowing that the sound will always be nice and close (obviously as long as the children stay in one location). As long as you get on-camera sound as well, syncing it will take no more than a few seconds, and you always have the on-camera sound to fall back on.

balazer

Interesting thought about putting a mini recorder right on the kid. But frankly, I wouldn't trust it. With a kid running all around, you could pick up all kinds of noise from clothing rubbing on it and the recorder banging around. I'd consider an on-kid mic as a secondary to a good on-camera mic.

The iPod nano 5th gen has a built-in mic, and a 6th gen can use an external mic. Here's another recorder, though I have no idea about the sound quality: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/usb-rechargeable-mini-screen-free-clip-voice-recorder-w-mp3-player-blue-4gb-66315

Mark_the_Harp

Hi @balazer, yes, that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of. Can't hurt to try. Most of the stuff we've done is in controlled environments hence the static recorder suggestion but it really depends how active the children are. Not an easy subject to record!

ssh

@thepalalias 7509HD and V900HD are identical: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=441844&is=REG http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/428238-REG/Sony_MDRV900HD_MDR_V900HD_Stereo_Studio.html#Specification

"External mics do not necessarily raise the floor - it depends on what you connect. The noisefloor of the camera's internal mic at Mic Level 1 in any setting that uses the audio settings I developed (recent GOLGOP versions, Mysteron, Canis Majoris, Sedna, etc.) will be higher than the noisefloor of recording the input with a "dummy" adapter connected to the input jack. That means that potentially an external mic could give a lower noisefloor."

Awesome! Thank you.

@Mark_the_Harp Cool clip-on idea! I'll try the one suggested by @balazer it's only $20. She is very active, I doubt she can keep it on though.

Most often I film my 2 year girl at small playgrounds, parks, beaches etc. and stay close to her just in case. In most cases it's just our dialog. So we have a first person shooter scenario here. I need a very directional mic that can effectively cancel my voice behind the camera (cardoid?). Not sure which mic would provide the best pickup pattern.

Another consideration is handling characteristics. She would run to me and then I need to drop the camera and catch her.

thepalalias

@ssh I just looked at the photos - the V900HD are a different set than the ones I meant. The ones I had in mind were gray/silver colored with small amounts of orange near the center exterior. Either I was a little tired or they changed the model # (I would bet on the former). :)

Ebacherville

I've done many interviews directly into the camera, with wired and wireless mics.. works good, but I prefer to use a external recorder for recording audio.

If your really paranoid, use a external recorder, patch the line out into a splitter so you can monitor on headphones and then feed that also into your camera, they you get it recorded 2 places.. make the camera lower gain and the recorder you regular gain , its a safety track on the camera... and for the super paranoid.. put a ipod or iphone with a recording app in the talents shirt pocket or just out of frame.. it is going to sound poor by comparison to the others but if your other recording got messed up, it can be a life saver. iPod or smart phones are also nice if you on a fast production, you can email the audio file to people to get them a idea of what the talent said in the interview and they can tell you exactly what clip they want to see once you get back to the editing suite. You can do the same with video also , set it up and record video with it , as soon as the shoots done send it to the project manager for review.. many times you can have keepers picked out by the time you get back to the office. Very handy for productions where its not just you deciding on content.

My solution for single person interviews usually is the Tascam DR-40 ($150 and has xlr inputs) with one lav and the DR40 in dual recording, makes one track higher gain and second track with lower gain.. that is so if they get excited and blow out levels I have the other track as a safety. many other options exist, dual lavs in different positions is something good if you have talent that likes to touch their chest... or good for situations where the mic may get bumped.. also a shot gun is always in my kit also.

Also get extra batteries with that budget.. nothing worse that trying to find a place that has those little watch button cells.. to many times has my lav been left on when packed up , only to discover it on the next shoot with a dead battery.

balazer

Here's another mini clip recorder, with some reviews claiming good recording quality. Of course you'd leave the pen part off. http://www.dealextreme.com/p/usb-4-in-1-mp3-pen-with-voice-recorder-and-fm-radio-direct-usb-ac-charged-3566

Fair warning: you never know if the thing you buy on dealextreme is going to be junk or not. :)

I have to believe an iPod Nano would be the best audio recording quality from something that size. Have you seen an iPod Nano 6th gen? It's really small, and not super expensive. There are a bunch of different tiny inexpensive mics that plug into it. None of them are great quality, I'm sure, but 90% of good audio is just getting the mic close to the subject. The iPod Nano has no gain adjustment, so you'll need to choose a mic with the right sensitivity to not cause clipping at close distances.

Mark_the_Harp

@Ebacherville Fab tip about getting extra batteries. The emailing audio tip sounds a cool idea too. Amazing what you can learn here!!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

Tags in Topic

Top Posters