@bwhitz I see your point. What about this, however?

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/8687#Comment_8687

"I asked one of the guys from Universal to come take a look at it. He agreed it looked terrible." The way I understand it, he says GH2 motion looked bad comparing to film, if we take that as a reference point (I see that whatever else I refer to here, is getting rather strong reactions, so let's try old media, eh!)

@LPowell no need to be condescending here, pal. So you had a little back-and-forth with Driftwood, and now you are fuming on him and everyone else, I see it from other threads I'm following. Tone it down, my friend - you are being both unfair, factually incorrect, and too personal.

My thread is based on my own observations, and I have researched personal-view and other resources before posting here. I also did post a link to the video that illustrates one of the cases, earlier in this thread, together with the "cure" - longer motion blur.

Well, @bwhitz got me thinking. Maybe in fact GH2 does record a very sharp video with enough bandwidth to also produce rather low-blur motion. Question is, what is considered visually pleasant? To me, "strobe effect" in place of the expected smooth motion is Not pleasant. I have not worked with Alexa or RED personally, so can't compare. But I did work with 7D extensively, and its motion was never objectionable.

Now, if @bwhitz is right, maybe 7D's 24p motion is better because it is simply not sharp enough to begin with, plus its codec is rather inferior.

Then like @Roberto pointed out, most likely there's a combination of factors with GH2. For example, stock 14-42mm lens may exaggerate the motion artifacts by forcing its own over-sharpening algorithm.

Well, at this point, whatever is the cause, if I shoot 24H at 1/30 shutter, the annoying Orange... err.. motion :) is fixed. If I shoot fast sports, 1/30 feels a tiny bit long on blur, BUT nowhere near as objectionable IMHO as a stuttering look at 1/50.

@bwhitz

Please come on. I've been working with Alexa and RED many times. Have done fast dollies where in front of a frame there is lots of vertical objects and we did not use 60fps. Here is picture attached. That's from a dolly track shot, with RED. No strobing, no problem. Theres no irony here. You are terribly wrong if you think that all Alexa and Red material in 24p should have strobing effect. It's about shutter speed. And @Roberto is right about motion blur. You are right that even RED and Alexa has it limitations. Strobing will come out using those cameras if you have, lets say, fast pan and lots of thin vertical lines. But I've done shooting with GH2 hundreds of minutes. I've shot in all shutter speeds there is. I've used 1/25 shutter speed and took a handheld shot with a little movement and there it is. Strobing. At this moment, GH2 generates strobing too easily.

All I wish, is to look this problem through. Without arguing. I'm not expecting to have same quality in motion as Alexa, but if there is something to do to get better and less strobing shots - great.

@LPowell I'll download your latest and take a look.

Best, misterj

@MisterJ Yes, that pic shows the right amount of blur to produce smooth motion. I'm expecting your others are about right, too.

I'm really more interested in something quantifiable - if possible to reliably produce stuttering video. On my own I can only test a few targeted samples. I keep wondering if there's any benchmark we can all test...

how about..

Freight trains often carry universal-standard shipping containers. Where I live we get long trains, (4 km!), moving at a limited speed through town.

Instead of trying to pan, maybe I'll see if the contrasting vertical flutes on the sides of moving containers can produce stutter.

Best of all, it's quantifiable:

• The speed that matters is the movement across the field of view, not the Km/hour. The passage of a given point on a container - say, from left to right of the picture - can be accurately counted by the number of frames;
• A train is unlikely to make any sudden irregular movement, accelerate or slow down.
• A train takes long enough to pass by for a number of takes at different shutter speeds.

At present, I'm inclined to use firmware 1.1 (no hack) and the lenses I have. (14mm pancake might work with such a big subject).

BTW, make sure your OIS is off when panning – it might introduce judder.

Film at 24fps, if you talk to a DP or operator, has well know pan/dolly speeds that they won't exceed for those exact reasons.

I shoot film, 35mm and 16. The faster I pan, the better it blurs at 180 degree shutter. A zip-pan looks smooth on film. It also looks fine on a GH2:

We all do the still/pan/stop routine, intuitively:

Press shutter, and ONE, two, three, then pan [Object frame right moves to frame centre left slowly] and ONE, two, three four five, slow then stop] and still ONE two, three - and CUT.

In narrative film, a pan without camera following a central figure is a rare animal.

The limitations to speed are more often aesthetic. When panning you need to know why. In whose time is this shot I'm about to take? For example:

Scene 4_________ Interior________Day_________Gary's Room_________ Scene 4

Gary returns home to find his home ransacked. He looks around, afraid the burglar could be waiting behind any door....

This is one of those rare circumstances where a DOP might choose a slow pan.

Using film, you can get a smooth shot of what Gary sees as he looks around the room. The audience have no central figure moving around to distract them. Their eyes will follow every bit of this POV shot, scrutinizing everything they see.

A GH2 may give you problems here.

Note: Luckily, you can apply motion-blur in post here, because the whole scene is moving, so everything gets a one-click blur. If you had someone walking around, [ie static within the frame], you'd have your work cut out for you trying not to blur them too, along with the moving furniture.

after quantum v9 was released until date none of the patches has such strobe effect at all....for example quantum 9 x orion sedna canis cluster all these are somewhere beyond this kind of effects.... may be its lens...

difficulties separating the edges of moving objects

That's a big problem. Pans with no subject are rare opportunities to use full motion-blur of everything you see. But much more common are tracking shots: blurring the nearby bushes as they scoot by is easy enough. But the buildings further behind the bushes will be revealed by parallax, moving slower; the mountains will hardly move at all, while the sun will stay rock still. I would get annoyed with any software which wanted to motion-blur my mountains & sun.

@roberto before you analyse, do you know the precise shutter speed and frame rate that the video was captured at?

@roberto I'm still trying to understand what you (and everyone else) means by stutter, but I think I'm getting there.

I was previous of the understanding that you meant there's a noticeable shift in cadence, like a jump from a poor pull down, there's none of that in there.

If you're on about a little consistent frame cadence on horizontal (and sometimes vertical) pans, well that's intra-frame 24p for you. With the motion in that piece you linked to, if 24p cadence is a problem for your viewer, then you'd be nuts to shoot it that way. I don't see why that piece would need, or even want 24p...it's not cinema. But, I suppose if you're hooked on the detail of the hack, and you're unwilling to go HBR/720p, you're then at the mercy of a 24p intra-frame motion capture. But, having said that, I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out. It really doesn't put me off watching something. As someone said before though, it's like the DLP/LCD discussions that rage on. I see the rainbow effect, but it doesn't put me off so much, if at all.

I realise I've just opened the door to the Red/Alexa boys (of which I have zero experience) to say the above would look fine at 24p on them. All I know is that if the above was shot on film, with that range of motion, it would display a very similar motion capture character (rolling shutter aside).

Personally, I'm 'almost' desensitised to 24p cadence, as I'm just so used to it from the movies.

@mo7ies Thanks, wrong call I'm afraid. It was as if Vimeo might have sensed my slow internet connection and dropped back to 14fps (now that would be a clever trick) I really did notice a flicker when the guy swings the golf club - but then they might well have chosen a sporty, too-high shutter rate just for that shot.

A question for everyone insisting that the judder is inherent in all GH2 footage: do you watch it on a monitor with a refresh rate that is a multiple of 23.98?