> Big one?

Enough to feed my family

>I think that ALL nations that survived in evolution game had been "very flexible" and used things from "different cultures". This is that nature is about.

Using things and absorbing different culture are two different things. Most countries used things from different cultures, but were very proud about differences of their own. Japanese didn't mind to change their culture completely in order to adapt to successful scenario from different country.

>Talking with guys who lived in Japan I can't say so. They are just patient. Waiting for a chance :-)

Those guys are talking nonsense. They know very well that without US support after war they would be half under China and second half under Russia. I think no country loves to have foreign soldiers in their country, but I think the the symbiosis works still surprisingly well in Japan comparing to other countries.

>Where you get this bullshit?
C'mon. Sure there were some unique things and products. You would find them in any country. But the mass-production was based on copying copying copying. I was growing up in socialistic country as well. There were many scientific laboratories. But only one was for actual research. In all others scientists were studying concepts from western scientific magazines and trying to reproduce it.

> They did not changed their culture completely.

Fine, not completely, but considerably. From China, eg. willfully accepting Chinese characters, changing their language in order to use these characters better, using Chinese alternative words for most of things. From Korea, eg willfully accepting Buddhism, putting their original religion to second row. To get closer to West in the end of 19th Century - edicts to prohibit many traditional religious festivals, ...

> Somehow I think they'll be independent country living 3x better without huge debt that will impact their life very soon. US is worse that could happen with them, and it happened.

I would be very interested in that theory. Japan is still officially at war with Russia over the Kurile Islands. Russians were planning to take over Hokkaido long time before in order to get closer to Japan. Japan was super poor country after the WWII with starving people. US was pushing huge money and food supplies to Japan. Not because they're so sweet, but because they were worried that Japan will became part of the socialistic bloc. They did the restructurization of their national companies and made the basic principles of their political system.

>It is plain fucking bullshit. Worst propaganda that I ever heard.

You seem to like the word propaganda a lot. I was growing under Soviet propaganda and there were many jokes about that. Because basically everything was found by Soviet scientists. I don't know what reminds you a propaganda on what I said. I met quite a few scientists, who spent their life studying those magazines. They found it quite adventurous to guess how some things were implemented. I'm glad it doesn't work that way anymore. Nor here, nor in Russia. I believe, there are some great scientists in Russia, well I met plenty of super smart Russian ppl. Even though, I don't really meet any Russian technology in my everyday life. Maybe it's because before the production could even start, those ideas were stolen by Chinese :)

>They just do not have peace agreement signed.
And Kurile Islands is more like internal political tool in Japan. They don't need'em, but talking about them is sweet.

Sure, they don't need them. They just want natural gas, gold, silver, titanium and rhenium found there :)

>Japan did not need food supplies before WWII, didn't you noticed?
They had been smart and powerful, owned most of the China for some time.

They needed food supplies. That was one of the reasons for expansion. Modern Japan was never independent in most of their commodities. They never owned most of the China. They "controlled" part of it. But these wars with China and Russia emptied public purse quite a lot and they didn't get enough on reparations, that they lost support even among their own people. Japan was starving already during the WWII, when all food was on allowance. Yes, US destroyed many cities...well they were in war, right?

>Many people disappeared completely (ones that can be not very handy in new order).

I don't know what ppl disappeared completely, but I think it was quite interesting strategy from US that they let rule their old government in order to keep some stability. And I think that the fact, that the class A war criminal and his son became Japan's Prime Ministers later shows that the cleaning up was not exactly thorough. They also heavily supported labour unions, what unintentionally caused big increase of communists in Japan. What an irony.

PS: Just a note, if I'm right, first concentration camps ever were made by Russian Empire for Polish ppl. And they were surely used by many nations later.

>This is called propaganda.

This is called life experience...or Sparta? :)

> Yeah, piles and piles of gold :-)

More gas than gold ;)

> War has certain rules.

I'm not going to talk about war rules. I don't recall simple war conflict that would went clean. That said I don't agree with what's happening in Libya.

> Even recently they tryied to rise question about military base.

The question is always about Okinawa base. That's very specific question also due to the history, but I also believe that forces there should be reduced. By recent polls less than half of Japanese want all US soldiers from their country. I probably don't know about any other country where foreign forces would be that "popular". What more in times, when it's popular to have anti US feelings. I used to live close to one US base and people living around didn't have anything against the base. All they got was lower taxes, cheaper land or scholarships for local kids paid by US government.

>This is not "life experience". This is called painting dirt on your own history and history of other countries.

You sound like I'm painting bright history of my country to black. The economy hugely stagnated, human rights were suppressed, natural resources were "taken away" and friendly Soviet tanks paid a visit to people with no weapons. It's pretty difficult to find some bright spots in our socialistic history.

>Remember, this is not political or economic forum. And you turned 180 degrees from initial topic title.

I though that you expect discussions over your Personal View here. I agree the topic changed here, but I felt it was more or less natural result of our discussion. But I surely respect your right to say no to such subjects here. It's your site afterall :)

I don't own a TV ;) Fine, you didn't say exactly "no", so I'll try to give you some facts. I'm sorry that many of these information are in fact copied from wikipedia, with citation from some books, but I guess for internet discussion it could be enough (it's easy to find the real sources anyway). So if you're interested in some reading, take a coffee and learn about the history of my country.

> The economy hugely stagnated
Uttery bullshit.
Provide facts please.
And provide same facts for last 5-7 years of your "bright current state".

> natural resources were "taken away"

I don't even know how to cal this shit.

The Czechoslovak economy emerged from World War II relatively undamaged. Industry, which was the largest sector of the economy, included large firms in light and heavy industry. During the war, the German occupation authorities had taken over all major industrial plants. After the war, the reconstituted Czechoslovak government took control of these plants. Immediately after the war, the Soviet Union began to transfer large amounts of industrial and other assets from Eastern Bloc countries, including Czechoslovakia. In addition, the Soviets reorganized enterprises as joint-stock companies in which the Soviets possessed the controlling interest. Using that control vehicle, several enterprises were required to sell products at below world prices to the Soviets, such as uranium mines in Czechoslovakia.

Foreign trade was still in private hands, however, and remained important in the economy. Exports of machinery and consumer goods paid for imports of materials for processing. The quality of Czechoslovak export products was comparable to that of products produced in other industrialized countries. Agriculture also remained in private hands, and farming was still largely a family affair. The labor force as a whole was skilled and productive, and management was competent. This mixed system, containing elements of socialism and private enterprise, operated efficiently in 1947 and 1948 under a two-year plan in which goals were general and indicative rather than mandatory. The country received considerable assistance from the West through the UN, and most of its trade was with the West. Until prohibited by Stalin in 1947, Czechoslovakia intended to participate in the United States Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. By 1948 Czechoslovak production approximated pre-war levels, agricultural output being somewhat lower and industrial output somewhat higher than earlier levels.

...

When the KSČ assumed complete political and economic control in February 1948, it began immediately to transform the Czechoslovak economy into a miniature version of that of the Soviet Union. By 1952 the government had nationalized nearly all sectors; many experienced managers had been replaced by politically reliable individuals, some of them with few technical qualifications. Central planning provided a mandatory guide for institutions and managers to follow in nearly all economic activity.

...

First Five-Year Plan (1949–53) - By the end of the plan period, serious inflationary pressures and other imbalances had developed, requiring a currency conversion in 1953 that wiped out many people's savings and provoked outbreaks of civil disorder.

...

During the early 1960s, industrial production stagnated and the agricultural sector also registered a relatively poor performance.

...

Many factors contributed to the economy's poor performance, including adverse weather for agriculture, cancellation of orders by China resulting from the Sino-Soviet dispute, and unrealistic plan goals. By this time, however, reform-minded economists had reached the conclusion that much of the blame lay in deficiencies of the Soviet model. They began to prepare additional reform measures to improve the economy's efficiency. Serious defects in the Soviet model for economic development had long been recognized by some Czechoslovak economists, and calls for decentralization had occurred as early as 1954.

...

They had implemented only a portion of their program by August 1968, when Soviet and other Warsaw Pact troops invaded the country and the reform experiment came to an end. The next two years saw the gradual dismantling of most of the program. By the early 1970s, almost all traces of the reform measures had vanished.

...

In the mid-1980s, Czechoslovak leaders acknowledged the persisting weaknesses in the country's economy and its need to modernize more rapidly.

///

Now lets put some numbers - Per Capita GDP (PPP) ...I think it talks for itself

1950 1973 1990 2010
Austria $3,706 $11,235 $16,881 $40,300
Italy $3,502 $10,643 $16,320 $30,700
Czechoslovak Socialist Republic $3,501 $7,041 $8,895 $25,600 (Czech republic)
Soviet Union $2,834 $6,058 $6,871 $15,900 (Russia)

///

>and friendly Soviet tanks paid a visit to people with no weapons.

Back to books, my friend.
It is always good to read books.

I guess we're reading different books, but this is from on of my sources:

The 1968 Soviet Invasion
The communist leadership allowed token reforms in the early 1960s, but discontent arose within the ranks of the Communist Party central committee, stemming from dissatisfaction with the slow pace of the economic reforms, resistance to cultural liberalization, and the desire of the Slovaks within the leadership for greater autonomy for their republic. This discontent expressed itself with the removal of Novotny from party leadership in January 1968 and from the presidency in March. He was replaced as party leader by a Slovak, Alexander Dubcek.

After January 1968, the Dubcek leadership took practical steps toward political, social, and economic reforms. In addition, it called for politico-military changes in the Soviet-dominated Warsaw Pact and Council for Mutual Economic Assistance. The leadership affirmed its loyalty to socialism and the Warsaw Pact but also expressed the desire to improve relations with all countries of the world regardless of their social systems.

A program adopted in April 1968 set guidelines for a modern, humanistic socialist democracy that would guarantee, among other things, freedom of religion, press, assembly, speech, and travel; a program that, in Dubcek's words, would give socialism "a human face." After 20 years of little public participation, the population gradually started to take interest in the government, and Dubcek became a truly popular national figure.

The internal reforms and foreign policy statements of the Dubcek leadership created great concern among some other Warsaw Pact governments. On the night of August 20, 1968, Soviet, Hungarian, Bulgarian, East German, and Polish troops invaded and occupied Czechoslovakia. The Czechoslovak Government immediately declared that the troops had not been invited into the country and that their invasion was a violation of socialist principles, international law, and the UN Charter.

The principal Czechoslovak reformers were forcibly and secretly taken to the Soviet Union. Under obvious Soviet duress, they were compelled to sign a treaty that provided for the "temporary stationing" of an unspecified number of Soviet troops in Czechoslovakia. Dubcek was removed as party First Secretary on April 17, 1969, and replaced by another Slovak, Gustav Husak. Later, Dubcek and many of his allies within the party were stripped of their party positions in a purge that lasted until 1971 and reduced party membership by almost one-third.

The 1970s and 1980s became known as the period of "normalization," in which the apologists for the 1968 Soviet invasion prevented, as best they could, any opposition to their conservative regime. Political, social, and economic life stagnated. The population, cowed by the "normalization," was quiet.

///

As for "Ya. Ya. Surpressed. From day till night." My family was persecuted. On of close relatives was taken to jail for political reasons, his kids were prohibited from studying at university. My family emigrated in 1980s.


I don't know where you got your propaganda, that all bad history of this socialistic state was bullshit, but I can tell you that those tanks pointing at windows of common people were quite real ;) And if I have to choose a side, I surely don't mind living close to the US base, what gave me (personally) just advantages. I might be under their control though, because I'm listening to their radio quite often, while riding my Toyota ;)


I was really trying to minimize any generalization, hope you appreciate it :)

You can delete it right now then. I tried to make as readable as possible separating it to columns.

I take Wikipedia as fine source for online discussions, as you can usually clearly see from what sources it's taken and check them by yourself. I could use some Czech sources from my head, but they wouldn't help much. And for writing a work with English sources I would need at least a month and that's not worth it for such use.

As for socialism and Russia hater. Socialism maybe, not Russia hater. Soviet Union maybe, until Mikhail Gorbachev came. I enjoyed travelling along Russia as well as some post-soviet countries. I made many friends on the way. I enjoy travelling a lot, something I wouldn't be able to do just 15 years ago.

PS: I wouldn't use simple GDP for comparison. But why not Per Capita GDP?

@JMF
I'm from Poland and I'm really sorry for 1968. I am ashamed that my country took part in the destruction of the Prague Spring.
@Vitaliy
Do not you think that some people from former communist bloc countries may not like the USSR for the same reason why people from the Middle East, South America do not like the U.S.?

@Vitaliy
>Interesting to know how brainwashing works.
I do not understand this. Please explain this. Who did this to me ?
>And words of both of you prove that solution was, indeed, very effective.
What solution ? Tanks ? Very funny :-)
>Baltic countries also did not like USSR very much...
And Finns, Chechens ,Afghans ?
>Many now think that it had been best ever.
It is a simple because in my country this illusion exists too .
Many people yearn for the days of communism because they do not have time to think. There was even a saying: if you stand or to lie - the salary should be. Also miss the fact that they were young. As a young man that the world looks a lot better. It's so human.
Vitaliy, you is not lived in Poland in the 80's. You do not know what the world was bleak and hopeless. I lived and I remember and what are the differences. You are a mathematician and philosopher, so you can see the future better than me, but I remember how I ate stale bread. Perhaps in USSR was different. I don't know.

>You had two systems fighting for death...
Yes, you have got right and I think it was good for those countries that have not been in the Communist bloc because these countries have governments care more about people, lest the people would not support another idea. Unfortunately my country was in another shit. Today we have not any balance so world is going down. There is no powerful, real idea against capitalism.
>How it is related?
Every empire is the same. I do not say that NATO is doing good job in Afghanistan. They doing the same shit. They try to make their fucking luck on potency of the model as before the Soviet Union. Yes ,I compare USA to USSR. Why ? Because I don't like mother fuckers who telling me how I must to live.
>They'll also fuck your country
It is easy to say this,very easy but have you got any solution ? I do not think so. We have to choose this devil because no one can help us.
Cheers :)

@Vitaliy

Well Vitaliy, it's interesting, that those ppl who actually lived in it are all brainwashed, if they recall those times as a bad ones.

And I found your talking about solution funny as well. You're talking about how bad bad US is, when they support people around their allied base and how wrong was throwing bombs at civilians in WWII, but you find invasion of Allies with tanks as "the only solution at the time". Prague Spring wasn't getting to "other system", it was an idea of slight freedom in socialistic country after truly strict 50s, which were full of made up political processes and "many people disappeared completely" (ones that can be not very handy in new order). This one was one of the first ones - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milada_Hor%C3%A1kov%C3%A1

As for country we are doing relatively well. We were not affected much by so called "economical crisis", we have one of the smallest national dept to GDP in EU and better than average unemployment rate. So far so good, not really recalling "good old socialistic times".

@Mihuel

No need to be sorry anymore. I believe it's good that you know about your history but that's it. In order to injustice we would have to hate many countries incl. Germany, UK, France, ... No need to apologize anymore, I'm just sad to see, that many people are already forgetting.

Vitaliy, I hope you're kidding right now. I'm not comparing throwing bombs to invasion, I'm comparing attacking enemy to invading allies. I'm also slightly confused what do you mean by "attempt to change system in your country and throw out the goverment by force", as that's exactly what Soviets did here. Party first secretary Dubcek, elected by Slovaks, was supporting ideas of liberals in our government. As I said before, these were eg freedom of religion, press, assembly, speech and travel. He then prepared reforms to bypass mechanisms of Soviet control to be able to achieve such reforms, when those Warsaw Pact forces came, threatened all people and took our leaders back to Soviet Union. Is that what you're talking about? Do you know some other "origins of this conflict"?

Yes I'm lazy and I do use Wikipedia here. The reason is simple, of course I had to read many books about history (including propaganda from Soviet authors) but most of them were in Czech and I'm not able to do exact citation from them from my head. Would be very happy to be able to do such thing. I always read what I post here from Wiki to be sure, that it contain the same information I was taught and read in books.

>I like your style again :-)
Is this a sarcasm ? Thank you and and I like converse with you because you don't tell me what I want to hear ( It is not a sarcasm).
>Just try to read this without so much shit in your head :-)
Or read any smart man on this period.
Churchill ? :-)
>Again, same twisting.
Oh,this is propaganda. I understand that you miss for these times but otherwise conquered nations remember these times. This is like remembering of boots. Otherwise, remember them kicking boots, kicked otherwise :-).
>It is sad history of Poland...
We don't dream about Great Poland. I do not know whether such a determination. We understand where we are. We are between Germany and Russia and we have got greatest relations in whole history.And let it be.