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Panasonic GH5S GH5 S, 4K Video Edition
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  • Some of the Sony cams output 4:2:2 over HDMI. It isn't 10 bit, but it grades well. I have to say, the GH5 is pretty clean as far as artefacts, haloing, etc. It's a good balance.

  • There is visible compression, "halos", and "crunch" around fine details on allot of this footage I'm looking at. "Science" is weird to bring up here... because there is also "science" going on that could explain what I'm seeing... somewhere in the pipe-line there is over-de-noising, or over-sharpening going on that ruins the natural image. The images are over-processed, that's also science.

    You can just look at MTFs to see any issue with halos or such. And this is proper way.

    No such way as "natural image" exist. Each image is natural, even full negative with stripes and 300% green channel.

    For now you want to push your personal taste as some benchmark.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    I know, what I'm looking at. I look at footage all day. There is visible compression, "halos", and "crunch" around fine details on allot of this footage I'm looking at. "Science" is weird to bring up here... because there is also "science" going on that could explain what I'm seeing... somewhere in the pipe-line there is over-de-noising, or over-sharpening going on that ruins the natural image. The images are over-processed, that's also science. There is sceince as well as art to things... that's why there are directors and DPs... not just a technician that says... "well, scientifically speaking, your cell-phone is more advanced than the Alexa 65... so we're going to shoot Avengers 5 on the iphones we have laying around"

    Here is even some more GH5 footage that does NOT have the crunched-processed look to it. The crunch is a very distinct look. It's easy to spot, but it's not in this video. The detail looks very natural here on the horse shots...

  • @bwhitz

    But, the images don't look compressed from either of these cameras... the details aren't crunched-down and over-sharpened. I don't really care if something is technically done better... if it still has that cell-phoney, over- processed look, it's a no go!

    This is why science exists instead of "I feel it" stuff. Because all this "look compressed" is from same opera as "definitely high end and airy heights" in audio.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    Sure. The Alexa is actually pretty old now. So is a simple Blackmagic 2.5k camera. But, the images don't look compressed from either of these cameras... the details aren't crunched-down and over-sharpened. I don't really care if something is technically done better... if it still has that cell-phoney, over-processed look, it's a no go!

  • @bwhitz

    You know that Alexa is actually much inferior in MTFs to your smartphone in good light, right?

    May be your brain become so used to image made using rescaling and cheap debayer (yes, sorry, both BM and Alexa are forced to use FPGA with maximally simplified algorithms).

  • @firstbase

    Yes, it is very sharp. Like a cell-phone. My iphone is very sharp also. lol. It ruins all the detail though...

    I'm just gonna have to rent and try it out.

  • @bwhitz

    Well, on my monitor, the detail doesn't look horrendous. In fact, at times it's quite sharp. I guess it might be an "eye of the beholder" phenomenon to some degree. One man's pixel is another man's poison. Plus, it's a very hazy day with lots of moisture in the atmosphere.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    May be something personal? :-)

    Yes, it is. I'm too used to Alexa, Red, or Varicam footage and now everything else looks like crap.

    To be fair... here are some examples of what I'd consider to NOT have the horrible cell-phone-detail look. All viewed from the same computer, same monitor, all on Vimeo.

    (and this is on GH5... which makes me think it's the settings, or GH5s is actually worse w/too much NR) I'll just have to rent one. Too many variables online. But I figured I'd post about it and get input either way.

    Soft/organic... yet still highly detailed. No fringing or "crunch" around detailed areas...

  • The GH5 is insanely sharp if you want it to be. From what I've seen of the S, rumors of less detail are exaggerated. This whole line of conversation is odd. I thought people were always complaining that things are too sharp, these days.

  • @bwhitz

    May be something personal? :-) It is lot of your upper brain involved in this.

    Need to make real double blind test.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    Nah... I'm watching EVA1 videos and they look great. I've watched on multiple monitors around office also... same look.

  • @bwhitz

    Can be issue with your video card settings or monitor.

    Note that by default all GPU drivers like to make accelerated videos to look "pretty".

  • Here's a good example of the really-bad detail I'm talking about. This person seems like a perfectly fine shooter, so nothing against their skills... but the detail is absolutely horrendous. It looks like an old-school 5D mark2 or a cell-phone. Over-processed, everything looks like plastic, artifacts around every piece of dirt. Looks like blown-up 720p. Not sure if this is camera settings or bad-post workflow... but I've seen this look on allot of GH5/s (mostly GH5s) videos. It's even how those Nuemann-Films GH5 original-files looked... so I don't think it's the web entirely. It's not good.

    Companies will never ever make full off setting for NR. As it means big marketing consequences, as people instantly realize how big role it plays.

    Welp, that sucks...

  • There is not reason there shouldn't be an extra "off" setting to the in-body NR and Sharpness controls

    Companies will never ever make full off setting for NR. As it means big marketing consequences, as people instantly realize how big role it plays.

    Does the GH5s team have a twitter or something to get at them?

    No such thing as GH5s team exist. Almost all developers are moved to next project after firmware release, actually most are moved after beta firmware.

  • @endotoxic

    I insist that panafriend should make two firmwares. 1 a complete implementations of actual.gha5s 2 a firmware without all temporal noise reduction so we can manage in post . And extra features for disable options in camera. If. This is a pro oriented product born from a consumer one. It is still consumer, but if it is amied to pros we should have proper manual control just like a pro camera.

    Completely agree. There is not reason there shouldn't be an extra "off" setting to the in-body NR and Sharpness controls. Does the GH5s team have a twitter or something to get at them?

  • @DrDave

    The A7rii has great IQ and very good LL image in Super35. Try it for a day.
    If you are a filmmaker who want no IS, good LL and a bigger sensor, isn't the 6300 just better and cheaper?

    Yea, the Sonys are very nice cameras with a nice initial IQ if you're just shooting and uploading... but like I was saying, my job-job is a VFX artist... I'm just too used to 10-bit or higher footage. And yea, the difference is important to me. Skin, for one, has no depth at 8-bit, IMO. It always looks plastic no matter what. So 4:2:0 8-bit footage is just a no-go, period. It will not be usable for any client work and my personal-projects are all VFX driven stuff. Got to have 4:2:2 10-bit, at least... which I why I'm so interested to get another DSLR again, now that the GH5/s actually shoots to a useable codec. Otherwise, I'll just have to take a bit of extra time and use a Blackmagic Ursa 4.6k or something. Maybe I'll just save a bit and hope the EVA1 drops in price... or convince my post-house to buy it... lol. Plus, the none of the Sony's do 60fps at 4k I believe, that's another deal breaker.

    I really do, hope that Sony's include 60fps (or higher) at 4K and 4:2:2 10-bit (even to an external recorder) in the future models... I would definitely get one then.

  • The GH5 has a pretty good balance. The G85 has identical sharpness, but the GH5 has all those options frame rates, bitrates and so on. The GH5 has slightly better color and slightly better artifact control, but these are tiny differences. But I would be mainly using the 6300/6500 if the heating problem was a total non issue. I even thought of buying one and just drilling holes in it.

  • About detail. I don't dislike it. Finally it has a more organic image with a proper lens. I don't expect the Eva 1 image subsampling from 5.7k to 4k since sensor is almost 4k straight. But I must admit that there is something wrong with the iso settings and the noise reduction. An almost all Isos beyond 1600. Here is what I've been telling some pages before, there is not info of the real base iso. And if we cannot controll properly the noise reduction and sharpness, detail will be an issue that can impact on final user.

  • I insist that panafriend should make two firmwares.

    1 a complete implementations of actual.gha5s

    2 a firmware without all temporal noise reduction so we can manage in post . And extra features for disable options in camera.

    If. This is a pro oriented product born from a consumer one. It is still consumer, but if it is amied to pros we should have proper manual control just like a pro camera. On post we will
    Make the adjustments like noise reduction color texture etc. I'm not ranting it is just that they have come so close to a proper camera and some extra controls from the pro user who understand the drawbacks and the advantages, may well use this tool more efitiently

  • @DrDave Thanks for the link. A great little tool to save time and money before demoing. Much appreciated

  • @bwhitz @fahrenheit I don't rely on the reviews so much, I just rent the cameras for a day and try them out. The log comparison that leans Panasonic seems a bit off to me, log can go many different ways, and I haven't had a chance to rent the GH5s yet, but based on the samples, I don't think I will bother. Why didn't the review with the log example mention that the 6300 is so much better in the test scene? That seems really odd. The A7rii has great IQ and very good LL image in Super35. Try it for a day. The A7sii is for when it is really dark, so it's a specialty camera. Cameras like the a6300 and a6500 pull a ton of detail out of the image (see the photo below). Also, the GH5, a lot of things done right on that camera, but it isn't for filming in the dark. I don't film in the dark, but if I did I would go for one of the Sony cameras.
    I mean, if you buy a camera that is kind of blurry, you spend the next few years looking at blurry stuff.
    Anyway, if you don't want to try the actual camera out, there's any number of side by side comparisons: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-gh5s-review/8
    And to me, the video of even the G85 is better than the 5s in the dpreview comparison, plus the a6300 is substantially better. If you are a filmmaker who want no IS, good LL and a bigger sensor, isn't the 6300 just better and cheaper? If I only saw the image below, I would just go out and buy the a6300, that's for sure, but it is always better to try them out for awhile. It isn't a small difference.

    a6300 gh5s.jpg
    1042 x 536 - 165K
  • It is similar for a6300/6500. They just arent meant to be used with such high ISO. The tech is not there yet, and this is a band-aid solution. Would be better to have the option to turn the noise reduction down/off and use Neat Video in post.

  • @endotoxic

    Interesting, good to know. I will keep looking at GH5s footage as it comes in. I really want to get this cam... but all these noise-reduction settings, or whatever is going on, seems terrible. Although, to be fair... there just isn't much GH5s footage out there yet... so maybe (I'm hoping) it's just NooBz cranking up the NR and sharpening... lol. We'll see...

  • @bwhits

    I'm seeing the same results on gh5s. Lack of detail. The temporal noise reduction and its implementation makes the information bend and twich like in a supposed prediction. S line is capable yes, low light yes, but rump up iso and some strange things happen.

    Even gh5 with its Magenta shift is detailed at high iso

    On gh5 the resolving is there.