Less Gear = More Creativity - Just do Something... and do not care if it frets...

caveport

Vitaliy makes some very valid points. I apologise for my comments earlier in this thread. From now on, just simple facts. Since 28th March apefos has posted 16 GH2 patch variations all based on the 'final' The End patch. He has shown no test videos or other evidence for his claims about what they do or the quality they produce. Producer has shown some test videos of short home videos using these patches which are heavily graded using his own personal Filmvision Pro grading plugin. When asking about this 'pro' plugin and it's availabilty I received no reply. My only comment is for everyone here who is interested, draw your own conclusions. Look at the posted videos. Load the posted patches and test them. I have, and concluded that there is no value in them for me. You may have a different opinion. You may like Producer's home videos and the grading style he likes.

Back to the topic title. The amount of gear is not relevant to creativity. The amount of gear is purely to do with the mechanical requirements of the job. If the story needs a big sweeping crane or helicopter shot to achieve the required result, then you need to hire it. Having less gear to work with can be quite liberating as one can be more mobile and shoot more it a set amount of time, but it will not magically make you more creative.

I started working professionally in this business in 1979 and still work. I have seen the 'talented' young creatives fall by the wayside very often. Why? Because when you are spending lot's of other people's money on a production, there is no tolerance for bullshit. Bullshitters get found out VERY quickly and their name spreads in the industry like wildfire. There is only one measure in the so-called 'pro' industry: RESULTS. Everything else is B.S. In my experience the people with the biggest attitudes and ego's are not the 'pro's' but the independent filmakers who think they know everything.

I joined this forum because I own and use a GH2 camera and thought other members could use a little knowledge from another experienced professional. I have discovered that a small percentage of amateurs both here and elswhere feel threatened by professionals and their knowledge. Why do they feel threatened? Because they are defending their right to maintain their ignorance. My advice? Embrace your ignorance! It's like a big hole. Your job is to fill it with knowledge. I'm still learning from every single person I work with or come across on this forum. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable when I discover holes in my knowledge (Vitaliy has corrected me on a number of occasions) but I try to learn all the time and from everyone.

Thanks for everything.

ntsan

Well from a newbie's perspective at this industry I respect caveport and shian's post, before I work fully I always fantasies I can do this and that while still at school, but only after you dig in there is can of whoopass awaits you lol. There are some people who are really talent at particular stuff, that also give me wake up call at where my limits lie.

Even though I like shooting and hate editing but my friend and mentor suggest that to be a good shooter you need to do editing as well, which I found really helpful as it improves my shoot as I now know which shoot will work which wont (not always though, still learning more). When planning for shoot I found my friend is quite talented at visioning the scene or think of ideas that me and my other friend never thoughts of. Working with various people on different project gives me new spark every time, so I am constant improving/changing lol.

So yeah its better to to reach out with others to do start some work rather than sitting inside the cave digging your own hole, which can be really depressing. Because it would seem that no one gives a sh*t about you but actually that is not true, it just people didn't know your skill/talent yet.

Back on topic more/better gear makes your filming much easier to work through, it doesn't make your stuff good if you don't know how to tell story/presentation/setup.

endotoxic

@shian

I understand your point about talent, amateurism, destroys the good money for our pro work model. It's easy.

Indeed, I support it. There is something about bad talent that destroys the esthetics of art work, but enlarge the difference between a good piece or bad shit. So... It's fine for those who have talent, fuck, it's even better, cos they can bright further in this new sea of pro amateurs. only real good talent will be filtered. It's ok.

Cinematography is a fairly complex art form and is in its nature to filter quiet easily those who can make some good footage from those who don't. That doesn't means others cant try to improve their technical skills. It's ok I understand.

What I dont understand is your thirst for public humiliation of other member. It's ok you consider your self an asshole, it's not ok to treat people in a way others feel hurt and in the process fuck some more on the wound. You are right that in your own terms @apefos is wrong we understand. He has that aura of not that socially good skills.

I will ad some egocentric shit. I'm also talented as fuck. Some members know my work. I have that character on my image that can be recognized, that is fine there a much better cinematographers than you and me. Why would i just to make a point, use my talent to hurt others.

That is not something to be prod of. I get you man, just it's not on my chip to hurt others who luck talent. Say sorry sometimes make us bigger. I know the fuck you wont say it. Just feeling it maybe is ok.

This thread and your comments you know its not the bestie shian has on PV. Burry this shit and lets go by.

Lets all forget this, What i consider an accident. Shian was not on good mood.

maxr

Well… I bet our fellow forum member @apefos would never have imagined the shit storm his thread has triggered.
Some meditating might do good, specially focusing in diagnosing and trying IF possible to prevent GOP 1 and quantization tables of (inner and outer) confusion - with possibly voice finding within safe fallbacks :P

One of the problems here is a big lost in translation; I’ll try to explain myself: Apefos strikes me as a determined self taught guy, very curious to learn how things work and create his own “solutions” within the tools at his disposal. Apefos also - this must be said in order for the whole picture to be clearer - renders a very chaotic and dramatic, a bit needy but also passionate, resilient, inventive and helpful guy who - as someone said before - doesn’t have the best social skills. It is with no doubt a strange mix but if any of us was to be examined under the magnifying glass… don’t worry, a lot of geniuses completely lacked of social skills and instead put everything into their passions, becoming unbearable gifted people that more foten than not died sad and alone.

Talking of passions, and conjecturing from the comfortable outside, it also seems like in Apefos’ life there’s a vacuum between the knowledge and putting it to practice (that being from an aesthetic or a making it rentable POV), which most certainly can drive to frustrations. I surely can sign this paper. Furthermore, I see in this thread almost a self-talk, a reminder for himself that one can focus on simple things, on simple beautiful things that touch us. Once again the problem of naming, you name something of “art” and every fucking body is going to have something to say about it.

As a personal foreign example, when I started the exquisite corpse collaborative project I clearly stated that was JUST FOR THE FUN, didn't matter, there were so many souls mad because that was not the way of doing it and that I was foul and didn’t know about making good art and whatnot. It was just a game for christ sake; I don’t conceive the world as a place where everything everybody ever does have to be and look professional or even aesthetically pleasing.

Anyway, coming back to the present subject, once left to the side the misleading chose of words, I understood what Apefos was chaotically trying to say in the title of this thread and how that related to the example of the videos… no,n o no fuck you max, your ape, apefos was saying that we all have to film guys who play guitars with one string with 8mm manual cameras

And anyway, is this not a site called Personal View? So why can the man post away his unperfected understanding of this (also his) world? Of course others might find what you output uninteresting and might even engage in discussing their personal views. Is there an aesthetic, a skill, an intelectual subpar level below which one looses the right to be respectfully addressed by his peers and when others can treat us as shit based in an amalgamation of unbelievably stupid and childish pseudo-fascist complexed concepts?!!!!

One may have things to say, things to share, things to correct or to help improve other fellow person’s passion/dream/hobby/profession/vision/efficiency/concept but if the only way one manages to achieve that is denigrating and steping into their souls…mmmm it’s absolutely not worth listening, I’m not and will not be listening

caveport

I do get apefos opinion. I have heard it said before. Less is more. Maybe he should apply his idea to his GH2 patch releases?

belfryman

I've found this attack on/analysis of the poster over response to the post pretty sad and extraordinary. To me Apefos was just saying you can free yourself up by focusing on using what you have rather than just buying more and more kit - not exactly controversial and something I know is true for me. But I'm not a real cinematographer, I'm a writer, director and acting coach, who does filming/editing/grading when necessary so I just like the toys!

In regard to talent I've worked with a lot of people in the industry in the UK, mostly 'professionals' and some wannabe actors, some of whom believe they are fantastically talented but aren't and some who believe they aren't but really are and occasionally the self-perception and actual ability match. In the acting world it quite often isn't the most talented that get the work they deserve. I've seen many brilliant people languish and some not-so-good do very nicely. Sadly it also depends a lot on how good-looking you are and increasingly in the UK if you went to a 'posh school'.

A lot of the 'professionals' I've worked with are only distinguished from amateurs by the fact that they are getting paid. Before I started working in TV I thought everyone over the wall must be incredibly clever and able and then someone opened the gate and I went inside and found that wasn't the case, some were and some were relatively stupid IMO. People in the industry were also a lot more interested in craft than art, because it's a business that has to make product and is a very collaborative area of work, which requires most people to tone down their own opinions - which is where I fall down as I'm not good at saying what I think is rubbish is amazing.

And it is all just a personal view. My personal view was that most TV was crap, I think it's got/getting much better, but people in positions of power then thought it was fantastic and millions of people watched the crap, so who was right? now they watch stuff I think is pretty good, so maybe now I'm right. In film I thought the only interesting things about the Imitation Game were the way our society legally abused gay people so recently and that Kiera Knightley wasn't bad, but it was shot like an A, B, C of film-making and Benedict Cumberbatch didn't even have to stretch but it got a bunch of nominations.

Craft is measurable, the actor hit the mark, the focus puller hit theirs, but talent/artistic ability is in the eye of the beholder/society/the rich - Saatchi buys your work you are an artist because the money said so. But it seems talent is also, in our increasingly narcissistic, selfie-stick, reality TV world , in the eye of anyone who declares themselves to have it.

Gallo22

Shame on you @shian...

shian

Thank you all for coming, but Show's over folks... please - Exit Through The Gift Shop

eyenorth

@shian Last I checked it was Apefos who started this thread and set the subject, if it went off tangent he is hardly to blame in this case. So as it eases on topic again, perhaps you aren't the right one to close it down?

chauncy

"With 10,000 hours practice Malcolm Gladwell says we'll all be good cinematographers"

He's wrong. (and that's not really what he means) Not a true cinematographer that controls light, shadow, composition and can affect emotion with their cumulative effect. You can, with practice, become a great craftsman. A terrific cameraman, focus puller, etc.. And probably be happier than the artist. Everyone can be technical but not everyone can be a creative force.

What's he's referring to in the book anyway, is the idea that a lot of people who are great at something put in 10k hours of practice to get there. But he's not saying anyone who puts in 10k hours will be great at something. I put in twice that amount and never got beyond being a very good swimmer. And I go beat by guys who put in 500 hours.

But I have put 10k hours into becoming the writer that I am. And that's a whole other story. A whole other story.

RottenCarcass

We should all be careful about what we say. Even if something is true, like a particular member has no talent, why say it? I don't know if that guy has talent or not, and I don't care. I care about the consequences.

And I think Vitalii can agree with me here, because he has a fine sense of history:

Here is why - remember how Hitler was a painter, and they wouldn't let him into the academy school, because they didn't think he was talented? Look what happened. If I was in charge at the school - I would have said to my colleagues on the admission committee: "dear comrades, it is true that this man, Hitler, has no talent - but believe me, it will be for the best to let him into the school!".

Countless lives were saved when talentless artists go to schools or have a career. Every day I wake up and thank the lord that Uwe Boll has a career - with the racial-ethnic tensions in Germany (again!), think what could have happened if Uwe was not busy making films. If you give him bad reviews and call him without talent, he will only beat you up:

http://www.cinemablend.com/pop/Uwe-Boll-Kicks-Crap-Out-Of-Critics-1121.html

But what if he couldn't make movies - he wouldn't have critics to beat, he would take out his frustrations on the whole country. Look what happened when Schwarzenegger started to get bad reviews for his acting - he became governor of California. And he started talking about becoming president - but then wise people got together and made some calls and now he is back in the movies again... because those wise people knew what could happen otherwise.

Just the other day, I had a Russian friend here in Los Angeles complain about Putin. But I told him that it was he and people like him who put Putin in power. If you didn't like Putin in power, you should have told him already 30 years ago "Volodya - you are a beautiful male model, you should make calendars where you sit on a horse without your shirt and you are a very talented hunter of tigers and bears - TALENTED!", then you would have male model Putin on calendars instead of complaining about Putin in politics.

You don't know whom you are calling "WITHOUT TALENT!!" - that member has a strange way of talking and I believe comes from some small country - if someday that country turns into a disaster, I will blame YOU.

There is a bum who lives on the street not far from my house. He plays guitar for tips and then gets drunk. I always tell him "YOU ARE SO TALENTED!!!! Sorry, I don't have any change, but YOU ARE TALENTED!!!!" - he loves me and always smiles at me. One day a friend of mine came to visit me and he said as we were passing the drunk "what terrible playing!"... the bum jumped up and attacked him with a broken bottle!

Again, and again - if you want to save humanity, or even just yourself in your personal life, never, ever, ever tell an artist that he has not talent and should not try to have a career!

So, shian, it was people like you who are responsible for Hitler. Please stop.

I say: EVERYONE HERE IS VERY, VERY, VERY talented - even shian.

RottenCarcass

Here is by the way I would have saved humanity a lot of grief by encouraging artists:

1) Genghis Khan - Mongolian Throat Singing

2) Nero - violin

3) Vlad The Impaler - woodworking

4) Kim Jong-Il - film director

5) Muamar Ghadaffi - designing women's clothes

And so on.

apefos

@belfryman thanks for the film sugestion, I will try to find it, I did a look in IMDb and it is interesting, shot with a miniDV camera, but seems to be creative and the poster shows an attempt to be professional...

About all the discussion here I did not read anything, I stop reading after the film sugestion. I think this kind of talk is useless.

matt_gh2

@apefos Keep your head up. You've contributed to the personal-view community with good work. Also, you DO have talent. I don't remember seeing any of your videos, but I've seen your creative writing, and it's really damn good. (I'm referring to your comical post on what to do when you're waiting for the firmware to update. If anyone has missed it, it's on this site. Search it - funny and entertaining little story written by @apefos.)

I think you're idea for this post -keep it simple and produce something, might be great strategy for you if you're not connected to financing sources. I haven't seen your videos, so I don't know if @shian is correct in his assessment of your cinematography. But if that's not your strong suit, you can focus on writing/directing and partner with someone close to you who's good at cinematography, and make an indie film that way. Tarantino and Spike Lee made careers based on their writing/ideas and teamed up with people who did other aspects like cinematography. I think you're on the right path.

Guys, @shian isn't as bad as he comes off. He's given a lot of time, and created many tutorials, for beginners and intermediate filmmakers, all for free. He has a love of the art, and I would guess his passion for excellence drives him to focus public debate towards the quest for really driving towards making the industry/world a place that cultivates the best in cinematography and film, and doing so with full honesty. Perhaps he would have been better to advise @apefos to focus on his strengths, and outsource his cinematography.

None of us are perfect, and that goes for myself, @shian, @apefos, and all of us. Both @shian and @apefos have made significant contributions to the personal-view community, and both deserve our support. Let's try to keep alive the great collaborative and supportive spirit of personal-view community.

shian

This post was just to see if anyone was really paying attention to my words or just cherry picking for vitriol.

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/vanilla/post/editcomment/194516

If my words are not being processed carefully and only taken at face value, then this entire exercise was fruitless. And I apologize for wasting everyone's time and hurting apefos's feelings.

You can all continue to wade through the sheer avalanche of misinformation, ill-conceived thoughts, and declarative statements offered up by unqualified persons in your attempt to find the answers you seek. Or you can begin to police yourselves, and confine your dogmatic fervor to subjects you have concrete knowledge and experience with. [notice I never speak on the subject of the inner workings of hacks and codecs, etc. Cuz I know fucking zip about how they work] I respect those who do too much to soil the conversation with speculation. I'm not afraid to ask questions. "Would something like this, not be a better route..." et al in order to obtain the educated opinions of those in the know. Words matter. Approach matters. KNOWLEDGE matters.

Speaking of your findings in a manner that says, "This is what I've done, and here are the results for peer review," is not offensive. It is in politic with all exploratory forums. Making broad declarative statements about subjects you have no mastery in, and no concrete experiments or results to review is offensive to the process, and in the case of online forums a cancer on the entire organism.

People want to know why I've been absent from the discussion for so long.... this is why.

peternap

Not one of the better threads I've seen here and not what I've come to expect from Shian. I not saying he's wrong, just that it could've gone unsaid. Just my opinion.

gameb

To attack a member of PV in such undignifying way, publicly on PV is a real shame. It can only come out of a poor, primitive and unhappy simple-mind, who suffers from a profound inferiority complex. As everything in life comes back to you, your primitive mind is reflected in the outputs of your primitive "talent". Don't give up trying to draw, for gods sake! Get a pencil, go in front of the mirror with your undiscovered "drawing talent" and try to draw a "C" for "Cretin" in your face, you will see how easily it comes out. And bang - then you will have discovered just another "talent" that you have had inside without knowing. And then go out partying and enjoy with your friends this new discovery. I am sure they will confirm that your "talents" are infinite. But you should not do this on PV.

BTW I totally agree with @apefos on this topic. But I think, PV is mostly about technical issues, that helps people to develop their own ways of creating. Of course, sometimes the technically dominated videos, are lacking of good ideas. But that does not really matter at this point. But it is a well known fact that films/videos or other artistic expressions, produced with very simple technical means, can have great results. And of course great technical means is not a guarantee and have absolutely nothing to do with great artistic results. They are just a help, if well used. If wrongly used, they can mean one of the reasons for not such a great result.

shian

It's sad, but no one is really paying attention here.

No one really seems to want to understand why. Why would I attack Apefos? There's plenty of opinions, just like there always is on this site... but no lust for understanding. No desire to understand anything.

Why would Shian go apeshit like that?

He must be in a bad mood.
He must be full of himself.
He must be a jerk.
Maybe he has a point, but he's got a shitty way of making it.
.....maybe there's something else going on here.

Why

WHy

WHY?????

Pay attention, and you might get lucky.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

@shian

No one paying attention, because no one cares. And instead of simple apology we have here some kind of ode to yourself.

caveport

@shian No point being cryptic at this late stage. I think I understand you, but plain speaking is what is required for people to truly understand what your point is.

apefos

Just a song inspired on "Brushy one string" = "Apefos one patch":

Shame on Shian,

Now Shian can go...

Shame on Shian,

Now Shian can go, aham, yeah yeah...

Pity, pity, pity (knocking on guitar body)

Adam_Mercier

Exact, no one cares, excepted for the actual topic of creativity/gear wich is very interesting Imo.

We are pretty much all gear hoarders, or lurkers anyway. But some of use will never be directors. Various amounts of practice can make pretty much anyone a very good technician but talent and passion is what you need to tell good stories. But with practice you'll get better.

So far I have accepted the fact that I don't have the talent to be a natural storyteller, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'll eventually get better at it, but working with people with more talent and natural storytelling is also something I want to pursue.

We continue to convince ourselves that gear will make us tell better stories. Well in a way it is true, better tools , instruments, cameras can get us better results but will it make us better artists? Not sure about that.

If we want to tell stories, and comunicate emotion, we should not let gear be an excuse.

Just my personal view

caveport

@Adam_Mercier "We are pretty much all gear hoarders, or lurkers anyway." This is just your assumption. It's just not true. I have one camera & one tripod. I have one computer & one calibrated grading monitor. That's all. Film making is NOT about equipment, just as a carpenter building a nice piece of furniture is not about the hammer or the saw. It's about skill & educating yourself. It's not a mystery. You can learn to be creative. People are not born film makers. Moving pictures have only been around for a short time, 100 years or so. There is so much myth about 'art' and how to make art. It's the same as learning a musical instrument. Sure there are gifted individuals but there is only ONE important thing: Do you have something to say? If the answer is yes, then make something. If the answer is no, then don't tell others how to do it. Also one must filter the useful information from the noise of everyone's opinions.

BTW @shian I DO care. I've done my research on apefos. I suggest others do the same before they start ripping into Shian.

Now I must apologise for fanning the flames.

apefos

Let's destroy apefos. He is a promissing guy, so let's stop him before he can do something. Do not let this guy grow up. Competition rules.

Adam_Mercier

@caveport Just quick question, would you hang on this forum if you where not interested in gear/equipement?

As an artisan and builder of custom bike frames I can tell you that at one points tools DO matter to the results you get. BUT on the other hand I'm persuaded that the tools we have available in filmmaking nowdays for very cheap price (or even in our pocket already) are way sufficient to tell some actual interesting and creative stories, with enough visual/audio quality for people to actually enjoy them.

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