GH2 versus Arri Alexa and F3 (real world testing)

PerryWilson

I would love this if there was 4K support... I only see downloadable 4K films in our future

tfreakburg

Besides a home 4k sony projector and home 4k displays, red has a 4k laser projector in the works, with home and theater versions.

Who knows how long it will be before that's available...
But 4k (or UHDTV) is the future home delivery format. 1080p/2k is fine for now... but thats it, just now. 35mm has lasted this long because of its resolution. I say regardless of how we get there, we're going to get there. I'm glad the GH2 is so awesome, especially for the price. And I'm glad Red is out there pushing higher resolutions.

Youtube has 4k playback now, btw. We could scale up GH2 footage to 2k/4k and scale down Epic to 2k/4k and put it on there, maybe?

NickBen

Red is about to launch an 8K resolution camera in 2012!
Yes, 8K. A true DSMC camera that will replace both stills, video
and film.

MY TAKE:
8K is on Red's roadmap as confirmed by J. Jannard, they just don't PUSH it now
since they just are pushing the EPIC-X 5K and Scarlet (3-4K) RIGHT NOW,
which will both look UNDERWHELMING in comparison to 8K in ONLY 6 months.

At NAB 2012, you'll have Sony's F65 promoting 8K output capability, so
Red will HAVE TO release their 8K camera in 2012 just to stay competitive with Sony.

I think you will see tons of shootout videos coming soon comparing Scarlet
scaled output 1080p to the GH2 and the next generation Canon bodies,
and have a tough time convincing consumers of the difference except when displayed
on new 2560x1400+ displays or 4K displays which what, 1% of the public will own?

Remember Avatar's lesson, 1080p is good enough for a BILLION in sales.
It would not have made much more if it was in 4K, just costed production more.

So, enjoy the next 6 months when the Cinema crowd promotes 8K as the
new HIGH-END standard for TRUE Cinema production. Exciting times...

brianluce

Formats stick around for a long time. 4k, if it happens at all, is years away. We're still waiting for the the developed world to sign on to Blu-Ray. 8k is more Jannard hype marketing horseshit.

thepalalias

NickBen:

Sony's CineAlta F65 doesn't output 8k. It uses a 20.4 megapixel sensor but still outputs a 4K image (circa 9 megapixels if you output a 16x9 frame) .

Incidentally, even the earlier CineAlta F35 (which is designed for 1080P output) uses a 12.4 megapixel sensor for a 2 megapixel frame format. The RED Epic outputs 5K.

And of course the GH2 uses a 16 megapixel sensor and outputs the video side in 1080P.

alcomposer

>Remember Avatar's lesson, 1080p is good enough for a BILLION in sales.

Obviously the whole point of this site is about finding the correct balance. James was able to research and test a solution for filming in 3D and came to the conclusion that right now 1920 is fine. People that just want the 'most pixels' for no reason are just eating the hype. You have to learn and apply what you know to your craft- and that means sometimes NOT going with the best of the best - largest number solution.

Not related however- this is an issue with Apple laptops. Everyone can't stand that basically inside their tech is not going to be the 'best of everything' - there will be aspects that are leading- but others will just make do. This is because in testing there was found to be no clear advantage. Same with Avatar.

Besides- I am sure that James can now get a couple of Epics? Right? (I think that he is a global shutter kind of guy)

NickBen

@thepalalias check out the sony link below, 8K output is an option also on the F65

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-highend-F65.shtml#/post

... get out the magnifying glass for those 8K pixels pixel peepers!

nomad

8K in the Sony F65 is as much marketing BS as their "innovative" Bayer-Pattern (just turned by 45 degrees). From 20 something mix you don't get that resolution, never. It will be a great 4K camera, though.

tfreakburg

If your main goal is to make the most money now, shoot cheap and finish 2k. If you want your masterpiece to continue to look beautiful and current 50 years from now (Lawrence of Arabia) you want as much resolution as possible. It still may be appreciated, like wizard of oz, but people are gonna want to restore it to current standards. Make it easier on your future fans!

lolo

@tfreakburg
past is gone, future doesn´t exist yet, present is all there is...

thepalalias

@NickBen I think you're referring to the passage, "8K. Pushing resolution to the maximum, in the future you will be able to de-mosaic files from 16-bit linear RAW". I stand corrected.

Several of the reports I read glossed over that information and I didn't dig deeper.

alcomposer

@tfreakburg 50 Years??? Anybody have an idea about ANY format alive today that will even stand up in 50 years???

The mind boggles (we better have those F#$& hover boards by then!!!!)

tfreakburg

Lol. That's my point about film. Lawrence was shot on 65mm, a lot more resolution than 35mm, a lot more resolution than 4k. I guess in 50 years it could all be sent directly to our brain, so who knows:)

smsjr

I suggest everyone base their comments on real world experience. I see a lot of supposition in this thread. I have to ask the question, has everyone here used the cameras in question? The only one I haven't used but will be demoing very soon is the F65. So many things become clear after you use the cameras in the real world. Specs are specs, and as we know what something means on paper can be a completely different thing when put in practice. The competency of a crew can be a big factor. I've witnessed crews flat out using cameras wrong and if you were to form an opinion on the camera based on those shoots, it would be unfair to the camera.

Acquisition resolution is important not only for displaying in that resolution but for VFX, repositioning, downsampling, etc. I finish most projects at 1080P, but they almost always benefit when a higher resolution has been used such as RED 4K or 5K.

What's important is we have access to all kinds of tools and we can really find just the right fit for our projects. For example, I have the ability to use a RED One for a music video shoot this weekend, but I have decided to use GH2 instead. The reason - I will get more shots with GH2 because of the form factor and the director has approved the test shots with the GH2. The great thing is we can embrace all of these cameras and feel fortunate to be living in this wonderful time where film and digital co-exist and give artists a lot of choices. I love what's going on right now.

alcomposer

@smsjr

Your music video project sounds exciting! Especially considering your choice of GH2 over RED- would you mind elaborating on the sort of things that you would be doing that match the GH2's form factor?

(No need to give away secret sauce- just general stuff: Rig Wheels? POV?)

smsjr

@alcomposer First challenge is small crew. Not as many hands on deck as I'd be used to with a Red One setup. Second challenge is I want to get camera in some small spaces potentially. And finally, the weight of the setup, the decrease in amount of cases to carry around, etc will add to our mobility and allow me to get more shots done, and in effect be more creative. There will be times when I will wish I had the RedOne I'm sure, but for this project I believe the pros outweigh the cons. Snowstorm looks like it could delay this project which is a bummer. Nothing I can do to change that. :-)

PerryWilson

@tfreakburg I still have my VHS player... just sayin :)

tfreakburg

Nice :)

AndyNease

I know I'm new here, but I have one thing to add to all of this ranting about resolution. Everyone keeps saying how 8K and 12K etc will replace 4K, and that's true, but there is one other factor that so many pixel peepers and resolution junkies really never focus on: the resolution limitations of the human eye. Screens like the iPhone 4's Retina display have already arguably surpassed the resolving capability of the human eye, and are optimally viewed from 18" or so at 960x540. Noting that clarity dissipates with distance at a nearly exponential rate, you have a distinctly and rapidly decreasing return on investment when it comes to sheer resolution. 4K, viewed on a 48" screen from 62" will be in a similar vein to what a Retina display looks like on an iPhone. 8K and 12K most definitely will have advantages in movie theaters, but diffraction and the physical limitations of projectors already increase the softness of projection drastically. Home markets and Computer screens drive the market these days, whether Hollywood likes it or not. Ticket sales are down year after year, while streaming skyrockets. 8K has no place in the home except for a "my ____ is bigger than yours" type contest, purely because, if viewed at appropriate distances (I.E. not like a kid playing PS3 2 feet from the TV) there is a limit to what the human eye can even perceive.

The GH2 is amazing, the Epic is amazing, Alexa is amazing, and they're all tools for production, which has different needs than deliverable. 8K and 12K DO have a place in production, but less so in deliverable. Fact is, 28 Days Later is one of my favorite films of all time, both emotionally and visually, and it was shot using lens adapters on Canon XL1s cameras, with a native resolution of 720x480 in a 16:9 aspect ratio. Resolution isn't everything.

alcomposer

Great info @tfreakburg!

So refreshing to hear someone actually comment on production and the 'ease' of using the GH2. This is my No1 reason for pursuing this camera, personally. This should not be forgotten! The 'other' cameras are great and super- but are also heavy and large. (Not IMAX large- but still large).

As I work allot with art installation- dance- devised film- these are very important considerations.

Smaller than the Si2K in size- and wont make you mortgage your house!

NickBen

Once 8K is in the home (coming in next decade) on 85" or larger screens, I think people will be happy watching four 4K screens AT THE SAME TIME, or multiple channels at once like 16 HD channels, especially for Sporting events. Just like NORAD, except Dad has the ultimate remote...

All people wear headphones while Kid 1 plays a 3D game, while Kid 2 watches cartoons, while Mom watches romance movie, while Dad watches a cooking show...

Essentially, the home chill zone...

driftwood

Well we world premiered 'The First Raindrop & Last Teardrop' much of which was shot on 'QuantMeBaby' and 'ReAquainted' Driftwood GOP1 ;-) at Brighton's Nuit Blanc Arts Festival this weekend onto a projected 20 odd ft wide area using a Sanyo XF47 and it was absolutely stunning.

Thousands enjoyed the film - the resolution amazing - and it just shows how well the setting looks blown up to cinematic size.

I think we converted 8 filmmakers in attendance to the GH2 - they were simply gobsmacked that this little camera could provide the results we showed. :-)

tfreakburg

@driftwood

That's awesome!

As for the chatter about 8k up, I figure by the time we can put 8k in the home, the whole tv experience thing will have taken an adjusted route....

@AndyNease

That's what I was thinking when I made that comment about "beaming it directly to our mind" in 50 years...

RRRR

The proof is in the pudding.
The GH2 is clearly worth the trouble.

soundgh2

Do you know the BTV 3d chaps in Brighton Driftwood?

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