Personal View site logo
Make sure to join PV on Telegram or Facebook! Perfect to keep up with community on your smartphone.
Lighting and Blocking a two Camera Shoot
  • Situation: Have about 10 days to shoot about 75 pages of properly formatted script. Mostly Dialogue so it is playing out like a stage play. I originally planned it to be a 18 day shoot, but now I am redoing it to incorporate a second camera.

    We have: Dedicated Sound mixer. Two camera operators with some experience, but mainly they are following my story boards. Actors traveling in from long distances for the duration of the shoot.

    My plan was to get the masters and the inserts (Story related) together and re-light for the two over the shoulders to be shot at once. I realize this will be a more complicated, but I am experimenting with a center based universal soft light directed toward the principles of the camera side fill, and having each actor keyed by an individual directed light.

    The rim light is a smaller diffused clamp light that gives just enough coverage to make the actor stand out in the close up but not so much that it distracts in the foreground. To be honest, it is a tad bit distracting so I have been experimenting with edging it away from camera side as to not overly illuminate the foreground subject.

    The camera set up is to the left and right of the fill light. We have been able to get in really close without issue, but there is not much room for movement, basically leaving us with static shots for dialog. To compensate we would basically do a slow push into a more extreme close up, but we have only so much area to the left or right.

    Would it be more efficient to set up things in another way? If so, could you explain?

  • 26 Replies sorted by
  • If you're going to do that multiple camera stuff, light it so your sound guy can get a boom in there and swing it... and/or give him an ample wireless budget.

  • Really, that can't be overstated. I've been on enough shoots where they threw up every camera they could find – thinking they'd save shoot time, etc. – and it just costs more time in post trying to fix audio; because they tied the sound guys hands on-location.

    That is, unless you coordinate it correctly. Good luck!

  • Sounds like you may be overthinking it.

    It sounds like you have your talent facing each other at a table or something? Maybe sitting close together?

    If so, I'd use a china ball between them, and scrim around it to kill the spill. Use your back/rim light sparingly and then possibly do a soft fill to bring the room up to exposure if you want. I think all too often folks try to do things perfectly and it ends up looking sterile. I prefer some shadows on faces, especially if it's dramatic conversation. If the contrast is too much, then I'd shoot for some faint and super diffuse fill light coming from the same directions as the cameras.

    For backlighting I always use a tiny 100w fresnel. I use scrims and diffusion to bring the light down. I don't think it's ever been used 100% bright, even in the brightest rooms. Make sure to snoot it or use blackwrap or something to kill the spill from your rim light.

    I'm a huge fan of using large fill sources. I generally shoot a couple 1K fresnels through heavy gridcloth or a bedsheet. I think it looks better than a smaller source, more natural like sunlight fill. you might give that a try but you might need longer lenses because your cameras will need to be back far enough not to cast shadows.

  • @kingmixer Plenty of room for the boom operator to move, but low ceilings in two of the locations. Both of them are basements of old creaky houses. Not a lot of echo, but difficult to boom from the top. What do you suggest?

  • @mckinise what are the dimensions of the spaces where you will shoot? What´s the practical scenario like? Table top conversations? Actors standing? What are the practical sources? Will the ceilings be visible? Floors?

    How do you want the master?

    I´m all for bounce when it comes to situations like the ones you describe but how to go about it all depends on what the scenario will be like.

    Bottom line, IMO, is that you´ll be able to effectively shoot what you need if you can light the room in the most simple way possible without visible sources. Are there practical sources? Use them, put photo bulbs in or whatever you can get away with. Are there windows into the rooms you describe? Rent HMI´s or a gang of source fours to create beams of natural light and make use of bounce / reflection (of the interior or controlled) for fill. It sounds like you could completely hide all sources / use practicals and have a clean room to move around in (in which case you only need to keep an eye out for shadows cast by the crew). Keep some easy to move light sources ready for fill (a couple of kinos of favoured size, led panel(s) of good quality / strength for details) - and/or use whetever means appropriate to bounce fill.

    It sounds like you´ve got professional actors?

  • @mckinise Depending on the table and art dept, plant mics might be a solution. Depending on wardrobe, lavs might be a solution. If its inside, your sound person will likely use a super or hyper cardioid -which is shorter than shotguns - so he/she may be able to still get it under the ceiling.

  • @svart I am definitely over-thinking it right now. I am planning things to the Tee and allowing time for miscues and mistakes. So If we mess up as bad as I am planning, we will still be on schedule.

    @RRRR and @svart

    Living Room 1 = Standing + Seated = 12'9L X 30'8W x 7'H Space with furniture we can move. Actually the kitchen 1 is joined with the LR and Dining room so the 12'9 expands after 5 feet (Wall ends) to 29 feet.

    Kitchen 1 is the reverse

    Dungeon = Kneeling + Standing = 25L X 5'W x 8'H (Echo - Horrible Sound)

    Dining Room 2 = 15'L x 12'W x 10'H

    Living Room 2 = 13'L x 15' W x 10' H

    Garage = 22'L x 25' W x 10' Height

    Inner Garage= 10'L x 22' W x 7'6" H

    Under ground= Varies probably about 8x10x8 for two rooms then 10x 12 x 8 for the largest room.

    Bunker- 15'L x 8'W x 8' H (Echo - Horrible Sound)

    The Underground is a two day shoot. Will get all we need from that. Bunker is One scene. May end up cutting it altogether as it is redundant with the Underground looking so similar.

  • @Mckinise

    What time do you have for rigging? Will you have a gaffer/crew handling it for you? Drama, thriller?

    Day or night scenes?

    Seems like you have the rooms / furniture setting most of the parameters. I´d definately work on using practicals as much as possible, and in creative ways (in any night scenes, daylight in day scenes).. To keep the amount of lights on set to a minimum and with a minimum of fuzz for each shot. Look into how you can use on set fabrics and their light reflectivity to your advantage, as well as the reflectivity of walls / ceilings / floors.

  • Adventure Dramedy. Think Smallville or Doctor Who.

    We are shooting at my house mainly (INT). I am setting up for the first scenes and marking where everything will be for all the others. So setting up will be as simple as moving each camera and light to the designated area.

    No night scenes at all. Even the seduction scene is during the day. The practicals are a problem have long florescent tubes in the ceiling. Banding galore. Using 5500k CFLs in the form of softboxes and umbrellas. I have been able to to get down to 1/50 (f/) 2.8 at 200 ISO with the current lighting set up.

    Yes, I am using a light meter.

    The walls are white so that is giving a boost, but we will need to bring in other fixtures to liven up the back ground

    I also have 3200k work lights that I can use if I decide to forgo the soft boxes.

    Since it is cold in the garage and the bunker we are using the work lights there. 4 of them have been doing a decent job lighting the scene while also warming the room somewhat. We are using 2700-3200K practicals there.

    Have not metered the garage/underground/etc with the meter yet, so I don't know the exact amount of light we have to work with. I should be able to get it down to at least 400 ISO at (f/) 4.0 or 5.6

    I will not be shooting anything over 400 ISO. Keeping everything in the mid-range to preserve detail in the highlights and shadows.

  • Soft box CFLs and white walls sound like a nightmare man. Good luck! I'm no lighting expert but I would try to stay away from that type of setup. You're going to have light all over the damn place.

  • The spiral CFLs will definitely need 1/4 minus green gel, even if their color temp is right. That damn green-yellow spike is terrible and nearly impossible to get out in post without ruining skintones.

    I've used them and softboxes before, no problems there, but I always like the way tungsten looks more.

    Are the work lights using 3200K bulbs or just standard work light bulbs? Regular work light bulbs are more like 2800K.

    In a dungeon? I'd be using more of a hard light supplemented by some bounce as fill. This will look more natural than using more lights, but that's just me, I love to use bounce.

    EDIT: On the GH2, I find it's always best to expose for highlight detail first, then bring up the surrounding scene with fill light, if needed, rather than set the ISO and try to match highlights, midtones and darks.

  • @svart They may be regular 2800k lights. I did change bulbs but that was long ago. Here are some of the rooms in the house. The Garage, the inner garage, the Dungeon. Threw together with one of those $50 pixicams for someone to show the basic layout.

    I didn't put either of the living rooms in it. I also did not white balance or color correct anything so be warned, it's ugly. Oh and thanks for the highlight suggestion. I was thinking that, but it is nice to have some confirmation that is a good way to go.

  • Think hard about how you want the scenery to look and take it from there. If the scenery looks like you want to, you´ll only need to add or remove some light from the talents (if they lack "pop").

    Can you replace the tubes with something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/808208-REG/Sylvania_20608_Studioline_55W_5600_Fluorescent_Lamp.html?

    (I guess you have normal tubes, you´d have to switch fixtures.)

    Another way to go, than to try and neutralize light sources would be to color it - gel to your hearts content.. Seems like that could work very well with the type of thing you are doing. Do an impressionistic or expressive interpretation of the lighting scenarios.

    How about the possibility to have the character use something like a lantern (maybe single kino-tube or photo bulb in a construction light type of lantern) in the dungeon / underground scenes? (leave the fluorescents turned off) Let light fall off.

    For some dark indoor scenes where there´s a window, I´ve bounced / concentrated sunlight into the room from the outside. The windows will get even hotter, but you will raise the ambiance light quite a bit; with a bounce ready indoors or even cheap soft boxes have worked ok for any necessary fill when mixed with sunlight in that way (mind, a shadow or faint light reflecting off a surface can be pretty off colored without it looking wrong) - though it´s always good to be ready to correct with gels as you see fit..

    Construction / work lights can do a surprisingly good job although sometimes difficult to control. You can get a very nice soft light for closeups by bouncing them into the ceiling..

    Ceiling and floor bounces can be very helpful in a multi cam shoot. See if you can utilize them or if that will interfer with the framing you had in mind.

    In any case, if you can´t afford to rent quality lighting equipment (or the possibility to borrow), then at least spend money on having an extensive set of gels at your disposal. That way you will be more in control of what the options you do have will look like. The more I think about it, the more I reckon you should consider the impressionistic route for lighting your shoot - and in any case, if you take care - test light settings and map out everything in advance - I´m sure you´ll be fine. :)

  • @Mckinise you seem to have improved on your composition stuff. Now what i think you need to learn more about focal range, Seem you love to use same lens for all stuff. Please do not use depth of field like crazy mofo! its important you undestand why to bokeh or not. the focal range and the aperture are importsant, play with some more lenses.

  • @endotoxic Thank you. These scenes are probably not the best representation of what we will be doing. I will be experimenting with a few lenses in the next couple days.

    Production wise I am trying not to be too excessive with any effect. Shots will be used when appropriate and depth of field will be manipulated when it is best for the story.

  • @RRRR @vicharris I played around with the softboxes, umbrellas, and the white interior. Pure sunlight. At one point I was able to light meter a reading that was brighter than the sun outside. Of course, I was checking extremes. I was able to find a happy medium.

    That said, the reverse side of the room has color, furniture, and other adornments that break up the extreme brightness. I will use the space in the room to capture visuals from that side of things.

  • It looks like all your shots have plenty of light, although look a bit bland. Try for more contrast-y shots when you do it for real.

  • And try to use a practical light source instead of throwing up light everywhere.

    Good walk through though for storyboarding and lightening prep.

  • And paint your walls, every room a bit different, get inspiration from any decent movie. Place practicals as mentioned.

  • @endotoxic @RRRR @vicharris @svart @stip I am bringing in a couple people to help with set design. Working on storyboards right now.

    How do you feel about cross shooting the over the shoulder dialog?

  • How do you feel about cross shooting the over the shoulder dialog?

    Trouble! However, only you know the angles and frames you want so it´s difficult to talk in absolutes. Personally, I´d consider if it´s possible to shoot the master + one over the shoulder angle / cu and then go for the other over the shoulder + c/u details. At least go that route for whenever it´s possible. Sometimes it also makes sense to drop this scheme alltogether because the story has a moment where it all changes – and see how that particular shot is best served. Maybe spend some extra time on it.

  • Ugh, I don't know. Think you might have a problem of people moving into one anothers shots. If you have two experienced operators doing handheld maybe. I don't know.

    I'd go for an OTS and a CU of the same person if anything with two cameras but that's just how I shoot when I need to make up time. I find it's hard to shoot a master and OTS or CU in the same shot sometimes. Those are two different worlds for an actor. If your actors are not very experienced, you can get into trouble quick and I only know this because I come from the world of in front of camera.

  • I think I may try the OTS and CU way of doing things. I am being very strategic about where and when I want to get in extremely close.

    I really don't have to do multi-camera for anything more than action sequences. And since the 2nd camera I bought had several stuck/lit pixels on it and is being returned, we may end up shooting the majority of it single camera.

    Currently, I am working as an adviser to another director on a horror movie. We are single-camera and so far over schedule it is insane. Our issues:

    1- Too many cooks in the kitchen. I offer my advice when needed, but everyone seems to think they NEED a say in how the production is run. Much time is spent arguing or soothing bruised egos.

    2- Too many takes and shots. We are shooting no less than 15-18 takes per shot. And the majority of it is not because we messed up. There is a basic idea of what is needed, but then opinions are thrown into the mix.

    3- No storyboards, no pre-shoot walk through, no real planning. We show up and I analyze the scene while asking questions and set up the lights.

    I am glad I'm getting this experience. It is really driving home the need for a clear concise vision and an absolute chain of command.

  • @Mckinise -

    Issues 1 and 2 are absolutely dependant on issue 3, and of course the lack of management.

    Having a good, stern set manager is very, very valuable. Time is precious and all should have their roles to do. Everyone on set should know that. (I´ve had people in catering coming to me to ask questions about how to solve their issues, whilst I´m setting up shots and we´re late in the schedule - hardly appreciated). Also, it´s problematic if the director is insecure or have a hard time articulating his/her ideas into a definite course of action - this can cause confusion and / or easily avoidable discussions.

    Btw, sounds like you have a plan! Prepare it and stick to it and you´ll be just fine. Don´t be afraid to kill some darlings if you are pressed for time, on set. Go by necessity in that case.

  • 15-18 takes!!!!! Fuck man. What are you working on a James L. Brooks film? Holy shit! Just kidding of course :)