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Fluid Head and Tripod advice
  • Hi everyone, i am looking at getting a new tripod , as my rig is expanding and getting quite heavy and my current tripod sachtler ace M is at the limits of what it can really manage (haven't even put a v lock battery and power solution on it yet) I am currently at around 5.5kg but can see it quite easily expanding to a 10kg type rig when shooting narrative film. the set up includes lanparte rig, ff, evf/ monitor on magic arm and am yet to get the aforementioned power solution and mattebox ... so you can see its going to gat a fair bit heavier .

    this is all with the gh3 as well and i think in the future i will take a plunge and get a BMCC adding even more weight. you may ask why do you need to put an entire shoulder rig on a tripod but in micro budget narrative work i really enjoy the convenience of locking it all down on sticks then quick releasing it off if i go shoulder mounted , i actually like the extra weight handling the whole thing.

    I am only learning still really and by no means an expert but i want a tripod that will last that i wont find myself outgrowing unless i am actually doing this for a living and making money. My requirements then are a little tricky as it would be lovely to get a tripod and head that can handle bare minimal gh3 and lens combo for casual hobbyist stuff and going lightweight to location scouts, and traveling (holidays etc) but also handle the fully fledged rig when it is realised with a bit of wiggle room too just in case.

    go ahead and tell me if im asking too much and really need 2 tripods one for each scenario....

    what payload would you recommend if the rig is going to be up to 10kg approx.? (i have noticed a lot of the time the counterbalance payload is a lot less ... i don't want to be fighting against the weight of it all the time).

    i have some ideas but i would like to hear what you guys think. i am interested obviously in having a very adjustable and wide ranging counterbalance option, maybe one that can be disengaged fully to allow just gh3 to work.

    heres what i have so far

    Libec:

    rs450 http://www.libecsales.com/products/rs/RH45R.html

    (or will even rs350 be enough?)

    eimage :

    EI-7083 http://www.eimagevideo.com/enproduct_largerimage.asp?id=854&cpfl=118

    EI-7107 http://www.eimagevideo.com/enproduct_largerimage.asp?id=858&cpfl=119

    GH15 http://www.eimagevideo.com/enproduct_largerimage.asp?id=1080&cpfl=212

    (or will gh10 be enough)

    sachtler :

    FSB 8 http://www.sachtler.com/en/products/camera-support/fluid-heads/product_fluid-heads-75-mm_fsb-8__tech-facts.html

    ideally under £1000 ... and tell me if all this is overkill! all of the above models are obviously more suited to the heavier side of things im just unsure as to whether they could do the lighter side in a pinch too...

    cheers guys in advance

  • 9 Replies sorted by
  • Thing that you need to know is chart for counterbalance and you must understand how it works for you. As i do not see here heads with counterbalance working with, say, 500-1.5kg things.

    I'll suggest FC-04H + 7402 legs, just with original spring (not with light). And working with rig.

  • As Vitaliy said: All the heads are by far not usable with more lightweight systems. They are designed for camera systems, which ALWAYS are above 5 or 6kg (or even higher). No matter what accessories you are using. That´s a little bit of a problem with the "bigger" heads.

    There are only a few heads which are usable over a very wide range. The already mentioned Sachtler FSB8 is for example one of them (and you can use cheaper 75mm half bowl tripods with it - which is nice). It has a very wide load range (altough with the GH3 alone it will be not possible to balance it out) -> It has a min. load of 1,2kg at 75mm cog (center of gravity). You need to check the counterbalance charts (as Vitaliy also mentioned already):

    http://www.sachtler.com/en/products/camera-support/fluid-heads/product_fluid-heads-75-mm_fsb-8__tech-facts.html

    So all in all: If you use your GH3 + let´s say your baseplate (and / or monitor attached) it´s possible to level it out. With the GH3 alone it will not be possible. It´s that simple. The bad thing is, that many producers are not offering counterbalance-charts. They just mention the counterbalance at any center of gravity. Mostly 75mm or 100mm. (But also often at 50mm, which is by far not usable because you are nearly always over 50mm of cog.)

    Btw.: Also a very good alternative is the Cartoni Focus HD head: (Altough it´s a 100mm head - so you need a bigger tripod. Manfrotto 536 for example is VERY NICE!)

    http://www.cartoni.com/web/en/fluid-heads?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=225&category_id=1

    The huge pros are: Stepless drag control (for pan & tilt), stepless counterbalance control (so it´s possible to fine-tune your counterbalance), a even higher load capacity (& also a higher range) and it´s also price wise not THAT expensive. (The FSB8 is more pricey for example - at least here in europe.) BUT: There is the huge problem of the plastic knobs (for the locks and so on). These are quite bad and they are breaking quite easy. At least at the beginning that was a HUGE problem. So it´s recommended to get sprae parts already when you buy the head. But that´s it (problem wise). At least as far as I know.

    Btw.: I am also already at 5 or 6kg with the rig. And it annoys me because full loaded it will be easily over 8 or 9kg (for a DSLR / SYSTEM CAMERA rig !?!). I think I will reduce / sell my rig and make a more usable setup - Handheld (as lightweight as possible) and tripod (as minimalistic and easy to use as possible). So you also don´t need the most espensive tripod (+ head). ^^

    Also an option and this is what I will get (as soon as possible): The Benro H8 head + a A373T tripod (single tube aluminium version). It´s not that expensive (around 600 to 700€ incl. VAT for the WHOLE KIT - full name A373TH8). Because: I already used / had the H10 head + the A674T tripod for a few weeks - REALLY good head for the price (and I used it with a 10,5kg rig / camera of a friend - Without ANY problems - also not counterbalance wise.) Silky smooth operation, 5 years warranty (if you get it from the official dealer) and a very stable head (btw. - Cartoni is also offering 5 years of warranty if that one is more interesting for you ^^). About the H10 kit additionaly: Only the weight was a little bit too high (of the legs primarily). And the legs weren´t the most comfortable ones (especially to unfold - and I don´t like ground spider tripods). It´s way easier & more comfortable to use the single tube legs (like the A373T of the A373TH8 kit). And such a tripod is also very nice to use for stills photography (with a 75mm flat base adapter + a ballhead or geared head for example).

    Ok. That´s it. Sorry for the long text. Hope that helps ^^.

  • As Vitaliy said: All the heads are by far not usable with more lightweight systems. They are designed for camera systems, which ALWAYS are above 5 or 6kg (or even higher). No matter what accessories you are using. That´s a little bit of a problem with the "bigger" heads.

    There are only a few heads which are usable over a very wide range

    Let's rephrase it - you know few of them :-) it is always advisable to check counterbalance chart, usually it is available for serious heads.

    FC-04H that we have on deals can work with very light cameras, as springs had been specially tuned. It come with original spring also, for big rigs (but it require head disassembly, not easy thing).

    From Weifeng heads you referenced, check 2013 models (GHxx), they must have some design advantages.

    One of the simple tips for light rigs - have small cage, put camera in cage, and put weight on top of the cage. Such way you need much less weight to work with big heads.

  • thanks guys for the response. i understand the tripods i mentioned are suited to the larger end of my spectrum. I guess i am more concerned with getting a tripod that works really well when my rig is fully loaded. (9 kg) it would be nice for it to do the range but i think maybe thats asking too much? (i could always get something for the lower range as well for the rare occasions i go barebones lightweight like a weifeng 718 because when its lightweight more often than not the case is its not a task were absolute quality is paramount... but it would be better if i could find something to cover from 0 to 10 kg well admittedly ) .

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev I was also very interested in the FC-04H in deals how would it with the heavier spring installed handle and counterbalance effectively a 10kg rig ? @Tscheckoff thanks for all the info i will look into both, what weights would you say the h8 will handle from and too? (is the h10 the lower model or the model above? )

    it is rare for me not to at least wack the gh3 with manual glass on a minimum of a 2.24kg cage rails follow focus and evf amounting to 4kg.

    thanks again , sorry for my ill informed and undereducated questions - still very much learning and enjoying absorbing all the info i can get.

  • @Vitaliy_Kiselev:

    The problem with the GH models - Absolutely no information about the counterbalance. About the cage + weight on top: Good tip. But not helping that much (if you want to mount a 1 up to 2 kg camera system to a head with a spring system for 5kg or 6kg at the lower end). But it´s for sure possible with the standard spring and the FC-04H head. (Because this one has a lower weight limit.)

    @jakepowell:

    Btw.: About the weight range - Did you think about the option, that you can keep the ACE M head and just change the head (to a bigger one) as soon as you plan to use your full featured rig? It´s for sure also a good option (and you don´t have to get a special head - like the mentioned - to get a bigger load / balance range). It´s also better because you save weight (bigger head = way more weight). And the ACE M is one of the most lightweight heads out there.

    About the FC-04H -> With the bigger spring you should get about 3.5 to 6kg at a COG of around 75mm. http://www.chinafancier.com/enproduct_largerimage.asp?fl=267

    Abou the Benro kit: The H10 is the head "above" the H8. It´s the 100mm half bolw version with 1 to 10kg of payload (i also used it already with ~1kg load -> GH2 + Manfrotto 577 + 501PLong + 14-140mm Power OIS and it was possible as far as you balance it out (at max. tilt drag) - because the handle at the back is nearly too heavy for that low load ^^). The H8 head is the 8kg specified head (instead of the 10kg of the H10). BUT: Sometimes it´s also rated at 10kg too (even on the Benro page) - so I think the springs are about the same. Don´t forget: You need an additional adjustable QR system for the H8 and H10 heads -> Because they don´t use a sliding plate (and the adjustability of the on top plate is a little bit limmited to the back - because it´s designed for bigger camera systems - not DSLRs rigs - which are quite often more heavy at the back). But that´s not THAT of a problem if you know it (and let´s be honest: Most people want to use ONE QR system on all of their equipment - So it´s not a con to get an additional 577 + 501PLong system).

    BUT: Also quite important -> The achilles heel of the H8 and H10 is the a little bit the more raw stepped counterbalance system. Altough: If you adjust the weight or center of gravity quite exactly (+/- 0.5 kg), to match the first spring (which takes about 2 up to 3kgs of load at 75 up to 100mm of COG), then it´s not a problem at all (because the drag step 2 or 3 is "ironing out" the difference quite well). The huge pro is btw. also (over a stepless counterbalance): You can disable the counterbalance completely (so no lower limit of the counterbalance system) ...

  • About the cage + weight on top: Good tip. But not helping that much (if you want to mount a 1 up to 2 kg camera system to a head with a spring system for 5kg or 6kg at the lower end).

    You arenot fully right here. If you open any counterbalance chart you'll see how much smaller weight must be if center of mass is higher :-) It is just physics.

  • You are right yes ^^. BUT for example to get from 2kg (rig + camera weight @ a cog of 75mm for example) to the lower end of the spring load of the Fancier FC-06H for example (the cog charts you can see over the link below), you need a weight of 2,5 up to 3kg (!) on top of your cage (if the cog of the additional weight will be around 125 up to 150mm). And to carry around 3kg of weight (or let´s say at least 2kg), just to use a certain head ... I don´t know. Especially because many people try to lower the weight as much as possible these days.

    Center of gravity chart of the FC-06H head: http://www.chinafancier.com/enproduct_largerimage.asp?fl=218

    Edit: It´s even more lightweight to carry an ACE M additionaly in your bag. (It weights just 1,7kg.)

  • @Tscheckoff that may be what i end up doing , keeping the ace m spare in the bag / cupboard for when the occasion calls to go ultra light.

    how exactly do you work out your rigs G.O.G anyone?

  • Btw. -> Don´t forget: It´s just an option (which is only the best choice if you have a head - or plan to get one - which is BY FAR not perfect in the lower range - Or not usable at all because of the counter balance limitations). If you get one of the already mentioned heads (with higher load range), this double head solution shouldn´t be necessary at all (and you can sell your actual ACE M kit without any doubts). So -> Get one of the mentioned kits. And you can still decide if you want to keep the ACE M head for example. (And you will see by yourself if it´s really necessary to keep it.)