Hello everyone!
First of all, sorry for my english but I'm italian, so maybe I'll do some mistakes during the topic.
Now, that's the question. I am a videomaker and I decided to record a low-budget movie, after 3 years' experience with short-movies.
I have the screenplay, I have the cast (almost all), I have the camera (gh2) and I have a problem with the audio.
As long as I want to produce a professional (or semi-pro) work, I can't be satisfied with the internal mic's quality of GH2. The problem is that the budget is limited (300-350 €), so I can't spend a lot of money.
Surfing on the internet, I have found two solution: the H4N Zoom and the Rode Videomic Pro.
Now, many say that for obtain a good quality is necessary to combine the two microphone and so attach the RVP to the H4N and record the audio track on it.
But, it's possible to have a good quality of sound by using only one of this two microphone? If yes, wich?
Or there are other choices (considering the budget) that can provide a good quality audio?
Thanks for reading and for any replies :)
well there are a lot of different opinions what is "good". Definitely not good is the limitation of your budget. Imho it doesnt make too much sense to attach the RVMP to the Zoom. The typical application of these mics is attached to the camera. I compared some on camera mics and I ended with this one: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/84600
I would strongy recommend to record audio additionaly with an external (shotgun) mic plus externalk recorder but I am sorry to say that I see no solution within your budget. I also would recommend Roland R26 or Tascam DR-100 MK II than Zoom H4n.
First, thanks for your reply. I know that the budget it's a problem, but I have to consider many other things like lights and steady-cam, so if I can spend 300-350 € for the audio it will be awesome.(Of course, if there's no way, I will try to do some sacrifice to have more money to use). You say "the typical application of these mics is attached to the camera", right...but in this way, I can't listen how is the audio in real time, I can only see the istogram on gh2, or I'm wrong in my argument? It's the reason because I read that is useful tu use together this two microphones; so you can have a directional micro and an ambiental micro together and you can listen in real-time how is the recording. But, again, maybe I'm missing something in my argument (please understand me, I'm kinda confused XD) Last, I saw that the MXL FR-310 cost around 150 € (almost like the RVP), you think that is better than the Rode? The two registrator, indeed, are quite more expensive than the h4n, the quality's difference is big from h4n to these other registrator? Really thank you for your help, I really need it!
yes, MXL is way better than Røde.
Regarding H4n: the on board mics are okay but won't fullfill your need. Attaching a mic at the Zoom will lead you to a week point of this recorder: crappy preamp. I've had these problems, see my topic here http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/3146/rode-ntg-2-with-zoom-h4n-problems-choosing-alternatives/p1
Maybe you can get some used stuff or consider to rent the audio equipment for your project?
First, get good recorder. DR-100 MK II is minimum.
Second, get quite sensitive mike - http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=MXL++FR-300&_sacat=0&_from=R40
My usual rec here is MXL FR-300, it is not manufactured alreay, as I understand, so last items only exist on ebay. NTG-2 is widely recommended, but it is low sensitive mike, not best without dedicated preamp.
Third, get boom pole (as microphone placement is more important than recorder or mike brand)
http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/5844/microphone-boom-poles/p1
and shock mount (just search ebay for suitable one).
@peaceonearth Thanks for your witness, so now I definitely won't go with h4n and rode (expecially together). Rent is an idea, but where I live there aren't many equipment renter, so it will be difficult and expensive too.
@Vitaliy_Kiselev The DR-100 MK II seems quite expensive, but I'm assuming that is impossible to saving money without losing quality, so I will search for some promotion on internet. Never listen about this MXL microphone, I think that here in Italy there aren't popular like the rodes, but yes, I trust your experience. Of course I will get a boom pole (borrow by a friend). Your suggestion is to put the DR-100 or the MXL FR-300 on the boom pole and use one of them depending on the situation or to use them together?
I am not impressed with MXL mics. For similar pricing get a Audio-Technica which are true condenser mics (not electret). For a very capable all rounder (indoor and out) I'd go with a AT-875r which can be had at a street price for $160. It has excellent sensitivity but does have a broader pickup than longer tubes. The short tube allows you to use indoors without alot of the phasing you get with the long interference tube mics. You will need phantom power from your recorder though. (A good idea anyway since phantom power usually results in better mic performance from most manufacturers.)
If you are going to be semi-pro you need multiple mics: shotguns, pencil cardiods, lavs, etc. to provide best recording for a variety of situations.
I'd second what @Vitaliy_Kiselev said about a boom pole! Close overhead mic placement makes a world of difference compared to even the best mic mounted on camera.
Not sure what you mean by "true condenser", but the AT875R is an electret condenser microphone.
I am not impressed with MXL mics. For similar pricing get a Audio-Technica which are true condenser mics (not electret).
So, you are not impressed with that? And why all this bullshit with "true condenser" ? MXL mike is same "permanently polarized condenser" mike.
Issue is sensitivity, AT has 31.6 mV/Pa, MXL has 45mV/Pa.
If you are going to be semi-pro you need multiple mics: shotguns, pencil cardiods, lavs, etc. to provide best recording for a variety of situations.
In future, yep, but best idea is starting small. And one shotgun is absolutely enough for beginning.
@balazer You are correct
for difference between "electret" and "true" see:
from Audio Technica's website on AT-875r:
"Fixed-charge back plate, permanently polarized condenser"
since it is fixed charged then it is electret. It is the 4000 series mics that are "true condensers".
I hang my head in shame.....
@Vitaliy_Kiselev It's not just a bunch of bull. True condensers tend to be better than electrets. It was my mistake thinking the lower price AT mics were True condensers. (see post above)
I still stand by my suggestion of an AT-875r as a good all rounder. It will outperform that MXL 300 model with the long tube in an indoor situation and perform nearly as well outdoors. Most "pros" don't use shotguns indoors because of the phasing from the tube from wall reflections.
A good review on several mikes including AT-875r:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html
There are also some discussion on PV about using this mic directly into GH2. (I personally recommend spending the money for a preamp or seperate sound recording device).
guys, don't make the thread opener insecure by beeing know-it-all. He has a very limited budget and the sugested MXL 300 will cover a lot of his needs in the beginning. (btw I had the AT-875r and I sent it back within 30 days money back period and picked the ME66)
Please guys, don't argue among yourselves. I like to have much more opinion possible and I thanks everyone for the help, but apart from personal tastes and opinions, my question is what I really need for a good audio. I can use only MXL FR-300 or AT-875r, or I need also a good recorder? (like the DR 100-MK II Vitaliy suggested some post above). And again, is useful to use them together or I have to use only one of them on the boom pole depending on the situation? (recorder for internal scenes and directional for external?)
for both mics you need phantom power that ideally means a recorder. They are not supposed to be plugged directly to a DSLR.
Internal mics of the recorder (DR-100mKII I own, or any other brand for that matter) aren't good in any situation if you want to record voice (unless you put the recorder on frame in front of your talent mouth). The recorder is only used to record the sound from the mic (MXL FR-300 for example) you plug in it. It's better to use a recorder than plug the mic directly to your camera because the external recorder usually has better pre-amp (-->better sound) and proper monitoring.
Then, the best you can do now is buy a recorder you can afford and a shotgun (+boom pole, shock-mount, windshield, etc) and practice microphone placement. There is no better way to have good sound than to know how to find the best position for your mic. With practice, you'll find out that it's sometimes more handy and effective to use lav and you will learn the limits of using shotgun (indoor). Then, from experience you'll know what are your real needs, and find out the good gear without spending money for nothing.
It's like learning to use light for your image. Learn to use what you have (even practical & natural lights) and once you find out limitations, you'll know which upgrade work best for you.
@peaceonearth Ok! Now finally I understand what 'phantom power' means, thank you!
@astraban Your comment is really helpful for me, so I definitely need to go with recorder and shotgun together on a boom pole, wich seems to be the most professional way with this low budget.
you are welcome! As additional information: there are some phantom powered mics with a battery e.g. above mentioned Røde NTG-2 or Sennheiser ME66 with K6. But if its possible I would always recommend to have another person as boom operator. In most of cases an on camera mic is too far away from the scenery
Yeah, thanks for the advice, from the beginning I was looking for a external audio, because I think that is really important to monitoring the recording in real-time, that is impossible with the microphone connected to the camera.
@JP_91 Where do you think you will do most of your filming, indoors or outdoors?
@spacewig Indoors, is likely 65% indoors and 35% outdoors.
Perhaps you should consider a small diaphragm condenser mic then since shotguns tend to pick up room tone.
@spacewig Um, no, shotguns don't pick up room tone, they are specifically designed to ignore room tone as much as possible and focus on the distant subject at which they are pointed. That's the whole point of a shotgun - to allow a long-throw microphone pickup reach that isolates a distant source, instead of simply and indiscriminately picking up room sound as well as the distant subject.
Microphone pickup patterns are far from an indefinable black art - this shit is basic science and has been for ages, which makes it all the more tragic that such relatively simple concepts keep getting fragged by layer upon layer of wham blam rank am fora chucklefuckery.
@Shaveblog - shotgun microphones do pick up room tone. All microphones pick up room tone. That's why any professional location sound mixer worth his salt will record quiet room tone for cutting and mixing purposes in post, regardless of what microphone was used. It's also not true that shotgun microphones are ideally suied for distant subjects, unless you call 3'-6' distant. Any further than that, and you need to rethink your approach.
@sangye I didn't say shotguns mics don't pick up room noise. Just that they are designed specifically to reject it as much as possible, as this is their reason for being. There is literally no reason to use a shotgun mic unless you are trying to narrow the pickup pattern as much as possible so the mic isolates the distant subject and rejects ambient room noise as much as possible. Debating this topic demeans us both. Seriously, we're arguing about shotgun mics and what they're designed to do differently than a simple omni or cardioid? Really?
By room tone I mean room reverb, and, uh, yes, boom mics pick up plenty of it. A cardioid pattern severely attenuates sounds coming from directly behind the capsule which is where the reverb is coming from (from the mic's perspective). Since you're a fan of simple science compare the pattern of a shotgun mic to that of a cardioid and tell me what part of these very simple graphs you don't understand and that I'm contradicting.
@Shaveblog - Um, actually you did. You said "Um, no, shotguns don't pick up room tone".
I never said that they don't have different purposes from omni, cardioid and semi cardioid microphones. Obviously they do. I just think this needs to be a more nuanced discussion. I think you would agree. So, let's avoid sweeping generalizations like claiming that shotguns don't pick up room tone, even if it wasn't intended literally.
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