Hi to Everyone !
I am very interested in video making as a hobby.
Actually I would like to purchase a nice and little camera.
Anyway I have just started the learning process.
I read often this adjective, "cinematic", and I understand that there could be cameras more cinematic than others.
Maybe the term "filmlike" is easier to understand. I think it should refer to a look of the video recordings similar to those of film movies.
What is your opinion/experience on the subject ? Is it just a highbrow discussion ?
Thanks and regards,
gino
For me it's natural skin tones (and other colors also), shallow depth of field and maybe anamorphic format.
Like porn, it's one of those things that you know it when you see it :)
No handheld camera. No cats. No bushes. Real plot. :)
@oedipax, svart: looool :)
@lumiere: well there is no such thing as cinematic, although tonalt gives a good hint what most people understand as cinematic. Those things you can achieve with the panasonic gh2 without any problems, if you use it right. so as you already suggested, filmlike is the better term.
It all depends on the amount of money you have. How much you want to spend for the camera body itself, what kind of lenses you want to go with.
The gh2 is a bang for a buck, you dont get anything comparable for as little money, plus you can put many nice old lenses on it, which give a more flimlike look. Camera body plus a decent set of lenses should put you in the region of 1400-1500 euros.
The next level is attainable at perhaps 2500-3000 euros, if you for example go for the canon 6d, nikon d600 with several prime lenses. From then on its almost an open end, you can spend as much as you like.
Since its a new hobby for you, i think the gh2 is perfect to start with. It gives you great image and if you dont like it, you have not spent too much money...
Any graphical medium projected in a cinema theater ;) Or: When the pixel matrices interconnect in flux with hypersampling of banding in the noise spectrum (in contrast with video-ish: When the pixel matrices DISCONNECT in flux with hypersampling of banding in the noise spectrum). I.M.H.O. @svart Or very cinematic bushes, eller hur?
Thank you to Everyone for the kind and prompt response ! So I go to read the GH2 related topics. It seems indeed the right place to start my learning process. Kind regards, gino
In my opinion Dynamic Range is what cinematic means. The thing that makes most videos look like "videos" is that the sky blows out and there is no shadow detail. The GH2 was horrible for stock dynamic range. However, the higher bit rates of the hack allowed the shadows to be pulled aggressively without greatly affecting the noise.
With the GH3 it will have the high bit rates in stock form and it will have a much much greater dynamic range to begin with. Pulling the image and videos won't be as necceassary even with a stock camera. Plus it will just handle noise better than the GH2 because of the new sensor.
All of that will make it easier for you to get what I consider to be a "cinematic" or more "filmlike" image with the GH3. However, I think that with extra work the hacked GH2 will get almost the same image as the GH3 in the normal 24p modes.
cinematic also refers to the right shutterspeed/fps relation. optimally, cinematic look is achieved using a 180 degree shutter, which means 1/50th if you are shooting 25fps, or 1/100th on 50fps respectively.
otherwise it will always look blurry or strobey (which gives the homevideo hint)
Dynamic range, fps and careful exposure seems to be covered, so here's the inevitable "it's in the work methods" comment. Cinematic, as in "what we usually see in movie theaters": every shot planned, controlled camera movement on dollies, focus pulling, crane shots, steadicam shots, artificial lighting and/or controlled ambient light… and as said before, a real plot :)
Hacked GH2 and a small crew that knows what it's doing will get you that kind of "cinematic" shots. If done as commercial production, even minimal crew with rented gear, cars to get to locations etc. will cost at least the price of a GH2 per day :)
"Cinematic" seems to have multiple meanings to different people. One common definition refers to what the camera produces, and another refers to what goes in front of (and behind) the camera.
The first definition is things like 24fps, high resolution, 1/48th shutter, high dynamic range (around 14 stops), shallow DOF, smooth highlight roll-off, etc. The other definition refers to camera movement, good lightning, good acting, story, etc.
Sites like this are heavily focused on the first definition because we like to talk about color compression and optical lowpass filters. Many of us know we should be focusing more on other things, but it's fun to see what lenses SLR Magic comes up with or how much more dynamic range the GH3 will have over the GH2.
Currently, sub-$1000 cameras like the GH2 can produce images that are very close to film with the help of Vitaliy's hack. It's only real weakness is dynamic range which is why we're all hoping the GH3 can deliver in this respect.
Many are using bushes as the willing test subject especially right now when there are many kinds of hues that are difficult for the GH cameras.
I think cinematic also means strong color saturation, which the GH cameras often struggle to produce. But with a little bit of science and art of color filters the situation can be improved, and sometimes quite dramatically even. Attached is a quick sample that was taken using a set of color filters and later graded for strong saturation. The original as it came from the camera is on the right.
@lumiere61 DWBI. Nobody knows what it really means.
I think cinematic means other things than just how a camera works. The largest part of cinema to me is being able to adeptly transition from scene to scene and keep the story flowing. This comes from knowing what you need and what you don't need in a shot and either not shooting something that doesn't have a meaning to the plot line or throwing it away. A lot of amateurs will shoot a lot of stuff and hope to cut it together later and that always feels choppy and out of proper timing. Usually someone just calls this "artistic" but that's a cop-out. A professional will have every aspect of a scene already plotted and done before the camera ever rolls and most of the time will do very little "filler" shots. This isn't to say that sometimes a scene just doesn't come together as a director had imagined and needs to be cut differently, thrown away or reshot. I worked on a short film a while back where we ended up throwing away a whole scene(1 day of work) just because it messed up the timing of a later scene. Cinematics is all about balance.
Just how much more dynamic range could the GH3 have over the GH2? If the EM-5 is any indication(ie: similar sensor) then the GH3 might look more like the E-M5 in this picture than the lowly GH2.
@Svart is tapping on it.
There are just a handful of fundamentals where image is concerned that will be enough. If you want cinematic, learn:
All of these things will get you to something that "feels" like a movie very quickly.
Just how much more dynamic range could the GH3 have over the GH2?
The theoretical limit for dynamic range in a camera with a 12-bit image sensor is 12 stops. Converting the RAW sensor data to 8-bit 4:2:0 AVCHD will degrade its DR further. A digital camera can maintain its max DR only at its lowest ISO settings. The GH2's max DR is close to 11 stops, according to these measurements:
1) the absence of characteristics traditionally associated with video (TV studio lighting, clipping, line enhancement, interlaced footage, etc,)
2) certain tropes, conventions, narrative abstractions, indirection and withheld information, difficult to codify, but instantly detected. If those elements are powerful enough, they can surmount video characteristics to give the sense of cinema.
There are Pixelvision shorts and features (resolution of less than 100 lines, dynamic range, 2-3 stops at most) which are undoubtedly cinematic and, thanks to the abstraction of the image, can be far more cinematic than far "better" formats.
@kholi absolutely right. I think the devil is in the details. All a good camera will do is show the flaws even faster. Even the poorest camera with the right combination of acting, plot and set/location design will be a lot better than the best cameras and yet lacking in one or more of the other areas. I think my favorite example of this is 28 Days Later. Such a great movie that after about 1 minute you stop seeing all of the flaws of the friggin XL1's picture and enjoy the film.
@svart I simply refused to even let anyone turn on that movie after seeing the image quality in the previews, and that was a decade ago. If my amateur friends could easily exceed the image quality back then, then there was no excuse for an established director to choose not to. I mean, if they want to try something, that is fine - but I was not going to be forced to support it. :)
On the other hand, it is easy for me to look past codec flaws on for instance a 7D and just enjoy the movie.
@LPowell And of course the sensorgen data shows some other interesting things about the GH2's RAW dynamic range vs others.
Note, in this case I am comparing the ISO measured closest to ISO 160. (not the one numbered closest to 200), not the ISO with maximum dynamic range (which was sometimes a bit better in some cases) nor the one labeled closest to ISO 160.
Stops of Dynamic Range at Measured ISO 200 (sensors range from compact to FF)
Once again, note that several of these cameras have additional dynamic range at other ISOs. The D7000 in particular has 14 stops at measured ISO 83.
@thepalalias fair enough, personal opinion is what it is, but the movie is still great considering the budget they spent and the things they did to get it made. I still hold that money is better spent on set/location/talent/costumes/lighting than it is on cameras and gadgets. That's especially true today when most cameras are plenty good to make a decent looking film. Hell even the Iphone can make a decent enough video now.
I agree for RAW images. However, we are not dealing with RAW images in movie mode. We are dealing with compressed and altered images. Lot's of things can be done(Lifting shadows, Noise Reduction, ...etc) in the alteration of the image to simulate more dynamic range.
Now I agree that this is not truly increasing the dynamic range. However, you can't get the video without these alterations since there is no RAW mode for movies. Therefore, you might as well optimize those alterations to either give you the flattest image for post processing or give you as close to the final image that you are after.
In my opinion if you can't shoot RAW in camera then you should get the image as close to its final state as possible in camera. Basically, if you are going to lift shadows and alter the colors in post you might as well do that as close to the source as possible(In camera) if you have the equivalent in camera tools to do it.
Then the question becomes "how good are the in camera dynamic range enhancements". For the GH2 they basically didn't do anything at all for most scenes and when they did work they worked inconsistently.
For the GH3 I think we will see in camera DR enhancement modes that are equivalent to what is shown in the picture I posted above for the E-M5. With "Gradation Auto" the E-M5 exhibits a very nice and consistently broad dynamic range even though that DR is simulated. If you have to simulate the DR whether it is in camera or in post processing you might as well do a good job of it.
A good example of a camera achieving more than its theoretical dynamic range is the full spectrum GF1 I have. It has the same 8 bit 4:2:0 limitation that the GH2 has. However, it interprets more light than a stock camera. While the total dynamic range of the image is still limited by the 8 bits. The actual image that it shows can have a much flatter look by interpreting the extended light into the regular spectrum light. The modified GF1 can go much deeper into the shadows than a modified camera can. It is not a real increase in dynamic range. However, it can be just as affective.
If the GH3 gets a slight increase in real sensor dynamic range and a large increase in simulated dynamic range I think it could be a real benefit.
@svart I definitely agree. I certainly prefer if someone spends the extra to go GH2 as opposed to the newest iPhone (and greatly prefer that if they go iPhone they use iPhone 4 or later) but the fact of the matter is that I'll focus more on what went in front of the camera than the camera, just like you said.
I also have a much easier time forgiving poor lighting and location than poor direction, acting and editing.
When does a grain of sand become a mound? A pile? A mountain? How many grains exactly...? No one knows.
"Cinematic" or "filmic" is nothing more than a classification of various elements into what is familiar. In this case, an actual film or movie. To isolate the adjective "cinematic" and ascribe to it, a specific element of production in metaphor or physicality is pointless.
Grain is not cinematic, neither is dynamic range or a certain lens / mic etc. Although, without some of these key components, the whole can certainly appear less cinematic. A hand or an eye, nose, brain etc. by itself is hardly a human- although, those parts together along with other organs does seem to equate to what our expectation of a human is.
Continuing in this pretentious vein, what is "fun"... specifically? It's what you ascribe to an experience or situation that meets certain parameters: The activity, location, the person you're with, time of day, mood etc. In isolation, 'fun' does not exist in any particular element.
@L1N3ARX Point well taken, though I would go one further in regards to "fun". Fun is about the internal experience of the external situation, meaning that the exact same situation can be "fun" or "not fun" depending on both the person and their internal state, without having changed anything external at all.
It's like you're shooting the experience with different ISOs... sometimes it's perfectly exposed, sometimes you can't see anything but the darkness of your camera and sometimes the experience is just too bright for you to be able to make out the details at all. :)
Couldn't have put it better.
When I'm not working on something, I'm out with my GH2, practising. Mostly I practise transition shots. Then I come back and edit them together. If they will edit together.
Next I look at timing. Once you transition-into a shot and then transition-out, you're locked into a shot's timing. A 1-second shot, say, (of someone in a restaurant listening to another, lifting their eyebrows and then going back to eating their salad) can jump, whereas 1.5 seconds looks exactly right.
It took me a full 18 months to get anything out of my GH2 which approximated a film-look and a cinematic "suspension of disbelief" at the same time.
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