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Vaccines and Vitamin C, flame
  • This discussion was created from comments split from: What do we know about the novel coronavirus?.

  • 26 Replies sorted by
  • @Vitaliy ....too often vaccine don't work, or have negative consequences ....so treatment options are far more utilitarian imho. Of course, for this to proceed, the chinese will have to be more forthright about the origins. With more people not believing official sources, china is in big trouble and should come clean. Most people in the world would be sympathetic. If they don't get it under control, it's appearing like it could bring down their govt...or even worse....cause a global catastrophe. The frankenstein myth has always been about our abilities to create our own demise, and our lack of ability to prevent it.

  • @kurth

    Flu vaccines are very good and efficient. Issues quite rare.

  • @Vitaliy .....the systems data says about 50% effective. My data says "dangerous" ! I visited my brother and his whole family got the shot. Next day all 4 were sick...I was the only one not sick....cause I didn't take the shot. I only took it once, and was sick for 3 months. It's bs that it can't give you the flu. Give me vit c any time ! Maybe smallpox was the only effective vaccine.

  • Posts like those from the anti-science, statistically-ignorant and possibly delusional "kurth" (based on the post above) are what tempt people to call for censorship on posting sites - fake science that is potentially dangerous (people refraining from vaccinations). But, no, we just have to calmly show how idiotic the posts are.

    Here is what the CDC says about flu vaccines actually giving anyone the flu - it is medically impossible:

    "Can a flu vaccine give you the flu? No, flu vaccines cannot cause flu illness. Flu vaccines given with a needle (i.e., flu shots) are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu viruses that have been ‘inactivated’ (killed) and that therefore are not infectious, or b) using only a single gene from a flu virus (as opposed to the full virus) in order to produce an immune response without causing infection. This is the case for recombinant influenza vaccines."

    And the National Institutes of Health:

    "Vaccination is the best protection against getting the flu. Starting in 2010, the Federal Government’s Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended annual flu vaccination for all people aged 6 months and older.

    There is currently no strong scientific evidence that any natural product is useful against the flu."

    That last sentence means there is no scientific evidence that Vitamin C prevents the flu or reduces its symptoms.

    Of course, someone like "kurth' will claim that "the government" is hiding information, perhaps to suit big pharma or a campaign donor. I am not sufficiently imaginative or paranoid to conger up what such people are basing their beliefs on.

  • @markr041

    Well, it is hard. In abstract vaccine made using killed virus can make you ill if it had been some big issue during manufacturing and some of them are not dead :-).

    Most modern vaccines are actually made using only part of virus RNA that is enough for immune system and this definitely can't do anything.

  • @mark041 ....I'll put my scientific credentials up against yours any fuxing day of the week ! I have 3 patents, and a top secret clearance, all while you've been shooting boring videos. Is that it ? I worked for a top ten university doing research for over a decade. Cia invented the term " conspiracy theory" so small minds wouldn't think to much. It definitely worked on you.

  • @kurth Credentials don't trump idiotic statements. Patenting some specific thing does not make you an expert in statistics or medical science. And your response is another indication that you are incapable of understanding data and must resort to name calling. You could be a genius, but your posts here are ignorant and idiotic. And btw, I do not think you do want to pit your credentials against mine, but that is a stupid game that is irrelevant. I know it is embarrassing to have your statements contradicted by fact, science and reason so that you look bad, but only a child would react by spewing insults and chest puffing about credentials. Top-ten university - lol. Only ten years there? Didn't get tenure? Lost the ability to get grants? Posting "boring" videos is harmless; you are downright scary.

  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10796569 ...so even the lying piece of shit US govt admits there's benefit to taking vit c on the duration of colds. So mark041's information is unreliable..... And they're only testing doses of ONE gram ! Take a minimum of 15 grams a day and see what happens. That's the dosage recommended by Linus Pauling, who won the nobel prize. Buy buffered acsorbic acid and take 30. Buffered vit c wasn't around in his day. It'll give you alittle diarrhea but it'll be worth it. Only brainwashed idiots would believe everything that their govt tells them. A govt that exists and perpetuates itself on secrets, telling people what's best for them, is a joke.

  • @mark041 ....haha...actually I sold one and retired...when I was 37 ! Just like before, you start the name calling and then want to dodge the blame.

  • @kurth

    Please keep discussion to topic, no personal attacks.

    If you don't like someone videos - keep it to yourself.

  • @vitaliy...u can read...I didn't start it . And of course @mark041 probably believes that china didn't really create the corona virus in the bsl-4 lab just down the road from that animal market in wuhan as well. People like mark041 have blind faith in a system they have zero understanding of and zero experience actually working behind the curtain for, and feel comfortable in their ignorance. That's why he's not paranoid. He watches cnn and thinks they're telling him the truth. Information is freedom, but you'll notice mark041 wants to outlaw information. I simply told my story, as it happened to me. My brother who still is a tenured professor btw, also won't get the flu shot anymore. No one's telling anyone to not make up their own minds, or saying information should be censored. In a free world , everyone is free to use their own experiences to judge for themselves. That's my philosophy, unlike some.

  • Lol.

    people fighting over something neither of one can fully comprehend.

    We can all speculate but there is no point on make in it personal, nor justified agressions.

    We will all be fucked real hard if this virus gets arround all over the world.

    A stupid coronavirus super common stuff.

    Being fabricated or not is making millions of people struggle even if they are not there.

    Look at you both. Lol.

  • @endotoxic ...and I'm supposed to give a shit with a silly "lol". And actually where the coronavirus originates and it's rna makes all the difference in finding a solution before it reaches and fucks your part of the world, wherever that might be, which demonstrates you have no fuxin idea. There's still not a single case in latin america, and it's hard to verify, but I believe not a single death from a non-asian. And whether you would want or be compelled by a totalitarian system to take a vaccine would as well be important. And for my part , while i'm not a virologist, I have lots of experience reading scientific peer reviewed information, so speak just for yourself on the comprehension aspect.

  • Lols x2

    Seems too me you are scared or something like that.

    Maybe all knowledge is not enough to make proper answers.

    Are you in doubt?

    Why so frenetic?

  • I think the best would be to be prepared... But..

    In your case, and for the vastness of you knowledge maybe preparedness from others its not enough for you, maybe you need ISO 999,990. 9 for standards.

    Maybe you know so much that you can make a difference. Wooow.

    In that case... Why are you discussing with people here and not making a difference with all your scientist and friends.

    Maybe here we are not on pair with your intelect and achivements.

    Nonono.. Its me who its not undertanding, im sorry at all, anything, im sorry again im just a thirld world country person who lives in a house made of mud and rise alpacas and lives from the land. Lol.

    I'm sorry its too funny see scared adult trying to find something they will not.

    Please keep on.

  • ...di mi parte es curiosida intelectual y miedo por el mundo. Talvez no te sabes de esto. Pero no fue tu que dijo come jodido si llego el virus de tus alpacas ? Pero...un sencilla pregunta porfavor. Que significa @endotoxic por tu identidad de internet si no tienes miedo de morir de un infeccion ...como un arma biologica ? Y despues pongas esta idea contra otra. Has leido freud ? Esto es divertidisima verdad ?

  • @kurth The evidence I cited on C was about the flu, and not common colds. And there you go again citing credentials as a justification (Nobel Prize!). Here is a discussion about the evidence with respect to vitamin C that you can learn from, and thus you can save money on those vitamin pills: https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

    There is zero evidence for high doses of Vitamin C being effective against catching the flu or a common cold. There is no good evidence - your evidence is laughable - that flu shots cause the flu, and a sound medical model that explains why flu shots are safe. There could be some manufacturing defect for the "dead" virus type; you might want to see which type your family received if you actually want the truth.

    I am for free expression, which is what I said - I prefer to let any idiotic statement be made with no credentialed authority deciding what is true because I have confidence that someone with actual knowledge would dispute it, which is what I did, with cites and no references to individuals. Linus Pauling did not win the Nobel Prizes for his supposition about Vitamin C. Like you, he was a genius, but genius does not make any opinion correct. Evidence is what is required, plus someone actually able to understand it (this latter point is NOT aimed at you).

    You started the dialogue with me with your anecdote and conclusion about flu vaccines and then vitamin C. I disputed the vaccine nonsense, and you took it personally and then resorted to ad hominem arguments, which I pointed out. Now I am providing information that your vitamin C story is just as ill-informed. You are 0 for 2 in your opinions where we have evidence. So, how seriously should we take your hypotheses about the new virus?

    Well, your misinformed views on flu vaccine safety and the benefits of C do not mean you are wrong about the origins of the new virus, because we do not have much evidence on that. So, you are thus free to spout any theory about it, which you have, and I will not dispute it, except to take into account the source. But I actually do think it is useful to speculate with a wide range of options, maybe even ones that seem nuts at first glance before we can obtain good data. I enjoyed your free thinking about the new virus.

  • @mark041...I didn't start the dialogue with you. You weren't mentioned whatsoever. You're confused. And you might want to reread the first sentence of your first post in this topic as to who personally attacked first. And then continue where you give your opinion why my information should be censored. Again countering your claim. Interestingly enough, I presented a source from your own govt supporting my vit c claim...and there's lots of sites with this data. Nominally...10-20 reduction in length of the respiratory illness. And very few people even know if they have a cold or the flu. Don't try distinguish the data because unless people are hospitalized....even their doctors don't know. But no I don't believe the govt about anything. In fact, I usually start by assuming they're lying, and go from there. Anyone who doesn't do that doesn't understand how the world works. Now you want to quote some site called quackwatch. Next it'll be randi the magician, or some other cia supported misinfo. Interestingly the author is a psychiatrist. Now before I laugh myself off the chair, you do know that psychiatry is the biggest fraudulent pseudo science taught and practiced in american university, right? You want to talk scientific method. In psychiatry, there is no scientific method. What's that mean ? It means that results are never able to be duplicated and independently verified. You might as well have told me snopes said so !

  • @kurth In this thread about the new virus you interjected your crackpot theories about flu vaccine and then vitamin C. That is what precipitated the blowback that has got you in a tizzy.

    You cannot read. I said I do not support censoring, unlike others, and believed in responding to stupid misinformation like yours, which is what I did. I am sure there are people who would like to remove your misleading and harmful post (not about me, I can take it) but about vaccines and vitamins. People could get sick following your nonsense.

    There is no evidence that vitamin C prevents flu or colds. No systematic evidence, backed by medical science, supports your mistaken belief that flu vaccine causes the flu. Yes, you can never prove a negative, so you can always point to flaws in studies finding nothing. But there is simply no support for your view. Your claims have no backing from science, and your vaccine claim is based on a personal, unverified, anecdote (though I am sorry your family suffered, for whatever reason, from getting the flu). I agree with you that blind trust in anything is wrong, and not all government statements are correct. One should be judicious in whom one trusts. NIH and CDC have good records; they are not infallible.

    And again, you call into question information by citing provider credentials. That tome I linked provided the evidence - it cites the relevant literature, it is just a summary. The author could be a genius like you (with patents!), or a clown, but the content is good.

  • @mark041<"I am sure there are people who would like to remove your misleading and harmful post "> ...another of your facts ? Anyone who can give good reason in a civil manner can request such, although I'd think it was like your comment... obviously masked totalitarianism. Don't attempt to speak for others.

    <"People could get sick following your nonsense."> I don't believe I ever advised, asked , taunted or begged anyone to follow my advice, unlike you. Anyone can easily verify for themselves if vit c works for them...rather than reading regurgitated so-called groupthink facts. And likewise, in other areas, some children are hyperreacting to childhood vaccines. That's why it's primarily parents who are antivaxxers. Of course such data would be buried by the system that thrives on it's propagandized truth, and those in disagreement would be humiliated for ignoring groupthink, just like you propose. I wonder what you might think if one of your children became autistic the day, or the week they were vaccinated. That's happened to quite a number of parents. The ama wants us to believe it's coincidence. It's really a shame but I don't believe in coincidence.

    ...but I really couldn't give a hoot if people do it or not, since my kids are grown. I do feel for these parents. I worked six months taking care of autistic children and it was the hardest job of my life. What I do believe in is personal choice and govts not forcing anyone against their free will, just like we're seeing in china. Your ideas are just a whisper away from forcibly imprisoning people, like them. You might think about relocating ....of course, after the crisis.

    < " I said I do not support censoring" > you insinuated it should be done but walked back your pov for impressions sake. Remember...english is my first language. It's called reading between the lines.

    Yes, I question every source. Just like I question medical data coming from the soldout american medical establishment whose members are on the ama pharmaceutical kickback plan. But I even gave you a link on vit c from your own sphere of influence and you either didn't read the link , or choose to ignore what it said. The author of the quack site chooses the information it's puts online as well, based on their own prejudices. We all have those, but some of us are freer than others. Of course, he'll get support for his sympathetic agenda with the establishment.

    ...and you still don't get it...<"and not all government statements are correct"> not some, or just a few are incorrect...no, not any statements made by the govt are correct. None. Not their contemporary facts, nor their historical facts are truthful. You've been fed a bugger sandwich, bro. It's all a big lie. George washingtons teeth weren't made of wood...they were bought and pulled from the mouth of his slaves. Since we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, and truman told the american people it was a military target, the usa has been run by cia, who not coincidentally hired 1500 nazis at the end of wwii to fux with your minds, and completely control everything you read... operation paperclip and operation mockingbird. Everything they say is to further their agenda....and it's not the truth's agenda. As george carlin said. It's a club and you aren't in it. And yes I presume to know your lack membership.

  • @jleo ...really ? are they afraid we'll discriminate against monkeys? Also take what WHO says about anything with a grain. They have their own agenda, and generally it's not said for our good .

  • I moved offtopic discussion to separate topic.

  • here's some more dried firewood..... " What about claims that massive doses of vitamin C can help prevent a cold? Some studies have suggested there may be a benefit, but they required doses of 8,000 mg per day." .... https://www.health.harvard.edu/cold-and-flu/can-vitamin-c-prevent-a-cold .... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330115246.htm .... https://isom.ca/article/high-dose-vitamin-c-influenza-case-report/.... and as for my own anecdotal experience for the last 30 years of taking C for cold (or flu ) onset, it completely stops symptoms about half the time, if I recognize them soon enough. It minimizes symptoms about 1/4 of the time. The last time was the first of this year. I completely avoided getting sick. I took it for about 3 days , after feeling that itching throat and slight fatigue. My experience says being aware of what's happening in your body is important, and start the moment you first feel it, even if it's in the middle of the night. 8 grams is nothing and cost little. I usually do more...10 to 12 grams spread thru out the day, because it's water soluble and washes out when you piss. It's totally harmless but whether it will have the same effectiveness for everyone , I couldn't say. I also tried zinc supplements for cold(or flu) onset but found it was , for me, less effective. Some people swear by it. Maybe zinc helps prevent the illness from going further down the respiratory system. Maybe for some people. Everyone has to test for themselves. I've also tried consistent daily 1 or 2 gram dosages over long periods for prevention but found it really didn't prevent at that dosage anyway. Anyone who's curious can read the literature...or they can spend $15 bucks on 500 grams and test it themselves. I've read they're experimenting with high dose intravenous C on a number of illnesses. Doctors aren't gods. Everyone's ultimately responsible for their own health and well being. Every person is different. I find it ludicrous someone would say it's pseudoscience and doesn't work on anyone so forget trying it on yourself. Interestingly the history of science is filled with crackpots who turned out to be right, and authoritarians who turned out to be wrong.

  • China is conducting a clinical trial of 24,000 mg/day of intravenous vitamin C for coronavirus patients. They will receive it for 7 days straight at Zhongnan Hospital of Wuhan University. Honor and thanks to Zhiyong Peng, MD, for making this happen. He is chief physician and professor at the hospital, pretty much at ground zero for coronavirus. This study was filed and announced today.

    U.S. National Library of Medicine ClinicalTrials.gov

    China, Hubei Zhongnan Hospital of Wuhan University
    Wuhan, Hubei, China, 430000

    2019 new coronavirus (2019-nCoV) infected pneumonia, namely severe acute respiratory infection (SARI) has caused global concern and emergency. There is a lack of effective targeted antiviral drugs, and symptomatic supportive treatment is still the current main treatment for SARI.

    Vitamin C is significant to human body and plays a role in reducing inflammatory response and preventing common cold. In addtion, a few studies have shown that vitamin C deficiency is related to the increased risk and severity of influenza infections.

    We hypothize that Vitamin C infusion can help improve the prognosis of patients with SARI. Therefore, it is necessary to study the clinical efficacy and safety of vitamin C for the clinical management of SARI through randomized controlled trials during the current epidemic of SARI.

    Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid, has antioxidant properties. When sepsis happens, the cytokine surge caused by sepsis is activated, and neutrophils in the lungs accumulate in the lungs, destroying alveolar capillaries. Early clinical studies have shown that vitamin C can effectively prevent this process. In addition, vitamin C can help to eliminate alveolar fluid by preventing the activation and accumulation of neutrophils, and reducing alveolar epithelial water channel damage. At the same time, vitamin C can prevent the formation of neutrophil extracellular traps, which is a biological event of vascular injury caused by neutrophil activation. Vitamins can effectively shorten the duration of the common cold. In extreme conditions (athletes, skiers, art workers, military exercises), it can effectively prevent the common cold. And whether vitamin C also has a certain protective effect on influenza patients, only few studies have shown that vitamin C deficiency is related to the increased risk and severity of influenza infections. In a controlled but non-randomized trial, 85% of the 252 students treated experienced a reduction in symptoms in the high-dose vitamin C group (1g / h at the beginning of symptoms for 6h, followed by 3 * 1g / day). Among patients with sepsis and ARDS, patients in the high-dose vitamin group did not show a better prognosis and other clinical outcomes. There are still some confounding factors in the existing research, and the conclusions are different.Therefore, during the current epidemic of SARI, it is necessary to study the clinical efficacy and safety of vitamin C for viral pneumonia through randomized controlled trials.

    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04264533