Personal View site logo
Make sure to join PV on Telegram or Facebook! Perfect to keep up with community on your smartphone.
Please, support PV!
It allows to keep PV going, with more focus towards AI, but keeping be one of the few truly independent places.
"Bad" DCP authoring
  • ninettoninetto

    Anyone read this post by one of the authors of the DCP format? http://www.digitalcinemareport.com/article/what%E2%80%99s-wrong-dcp#.VP8Zb8ngfdt

    This has been troubling me for some time, mostly because of woes and contradictions when creating DCPs with subtitles: the Interop standard (called "bad" dcp by the author) demands 24fps which is often not the rate of the original material nor spotted subtitles, plus the general information I have is that only SMPTE subtitles are reliable. Except many theaters still cannot play this DCP norm!(which is what the author of the post above states, written in the year 2014)

    Does someone have the magic-bullet answer to DCPs with subtitles?

  • 7 Replies sorted by
  • rrsduncanrrsduncan

    Yes, hardcode.

  • jeanspillanejeanspillane

    I deal with subbed DCPs constantly in my daily job. I strongly suggest using burnt-in (hardcoded) subs. It's really the only way to avoid operator and system errors. I also prefer burnt-in subs for exhibition blu-rays for this reason.

    DCP standards at venues are currently all over the place, especially once you get out of the US. Other than big chains, people do things all sorts of crazy ways. If you have any capability at all, for festivals and screenings, attend a tech through and check all elements of playback and projection yourself. You really can't trust anyone else to get it right, even if it is a reputable institution.

  • rrsduncanrrsduncan

    @ninetto happy to keep up a discussion about the interpretation of that article and current DCP form; especially in relation to subtitles, feel free to PM. Hardcoding is the 'magic bullet' you refer to, especially as you likely aren't distributing all around the world with different subtitles and audio assets for each country (which is the strength of the DCP). It does however have a few caveats. Remember that projection from a digital projector still has the problems as film did regarding projector placement and that different cinema's all had specific plates for their halls - you will find that some of the image is cropped - this is perfectly normal but means that when you hardcode you need to make sure you have plenty of safe area at the bottom or sides (or top if you have surtitles).

    @jeanspillane - I'm not sure if you're a projectionist, but if you are that could be construed as being quite an unpleasant thing to lay at the feet of a profession.

    If your DCP is made correctly, delivered correctly and very importantly Labelled correctly then I'm not sure what element you can't trust.

    Also if you're in a big film festival and your name isn't Spielberg the chances of you getting a test are very slim, you wouldn't have checked your 35mm print to make sure the colour timing was correct an hour before the show and it's the same with your DCP. Feel free to try and ask the chaps and chapette's at Berlinale about getting space in between a show..

    Lot's of interesting discussion to be had, especially as more and more first time filmmakers are being thrown into the world of needing one's made. And when you are manhandling 300 movies at a festival and someone drops off a DCP that either doesn't register on the server or is called something like 'Title' it makes for very unhappy technical staff.

  • jeanspillanejeanspillane

    @rrsduncan

    I am not a projectionist, although I work closely with many and have close friends in the profession. I have the utmost respect for projectionists, so I hope what I said was not construed as negative about them.

    The truth of the matter is that many venues do not have adequate respect for projectionists and do not hire adequately trained ones, or hire too few who cannot check everything. I am not speaking about everyone, of course, but I have found that in the move from 35mm to DCP many venues have lost sight of the precision correct projection demands. Or are just rushing to keep up with the new technology and haven't worked out all the kinks yet.

    QC your materials before sending them out, check tech before a screening if possible, and remove any variables (such as soft subs) that can cause chaos between systems. Most of the time it will be fine, just protect yourself. And always send a blu-ray back-up!

  • ninettoninetto

    @rrsduncan: I was hoping someone would give more a more hopeful answer than "hard-coding", which is of course what I have advised clients until now. I am based in Europe and deal with many areas of post-production: the problem with various opinions and needs with subtitles here has been a major headache. Yes, we often need more than one subtitle language, yes worldwide, and yes, there is often hope and misunderstanding about the compatability of soft-subs and DCP formats. Which is "supposed" to be the strength of DCP.

    The problem I have is guaranteeing compatability which as the article implies, is just not there. To me this is schocking and hard to explain to clients who "just" want the DCP to work... WITH subtitles of their choosing.

  • rrsduncanrrsduncan

    @ninetto yeah I'm afraid it is an unpleasant transitional period right now. The one good bit of news being the purchase of Doremi by Dolby, which hopefully means Dolby will stop selling their servers.. Doremi's have the wonderful ability to just get on with the job and play the damn DCP!

    I've been working with DCP's since the MPEG days and there has always been a disconnect (which Michael points out in the article) between what the boffin's and what the studios and end users would like. What I think is tricky about that article is the use of 'Bad' and 'Good' - I think 'Current' and 'Mature' might be better working titles for now, at least in regards to the scope of that article. For me a 'Bad' DCP is the kind that got made in a basement that doesn't work.

    There is also the huge problem that this was a format designed for & by what constitutes the DCI, by which I mean it was the big (American) studios that pioneered it. As such it's full of pitfalls and traps for anything with a smaller budget or without the simple ability to send something to MPS or Deluxe to manage creation and distribution.

    One of the head engineers of the format admitted to me last year quite openly that subtitles still weren't really ready for 'prime time'. However they do work, and they do work reliably in Interop packages as long as there are a few things in place and precautions are taken when creating the DCP in regards to font choice, formatting and packaging software. From experience if the fonts, characters within that font subset and formatting of the XML is correct then you are limited to subtitle errors from still being rendered in the Projector.. I would like to think that the vast majority of Cinema's turned this option off a long time ago. I must admit that SMPTE are rather more desperate to move over to the new format than the companies that have invested money in equipment are. Not to mention good old fashioned not-liking-change-itis.

    The vast majority of DCP's created by MPS (who are the defacto in the UK in terms of volume) are still Interop so until their hand is forced, which believe me is happening as I'm beginning to see a few SMPTE DCP's filter through, it's likely to remain as an easy method of guaranteeing success in all servers. You have to remember that if you're client is Disney or Warner Brothers and you're telling them they might not be able to show in all halls then you are on to plums. This however does show that Interop subtitles are reliable as the big guns wouldn't be releasing bad DCP's.

    In regards to original material frame rate then yeah, DCP was, as usual, NTSC biased, but you have to remember that European cinema would have been 24fps for 35mm distribution and so the industry hasn't really changed in regards to that. Speed changes and spotting changes are still regular if shot at 25fps.

    You are right, if you go with a SMPTE DCP there is no 100% guarantee it will work in every hall in the world, but right now that leaves you with 3 options;

    1 - Hardcode every version.. nasty, but 100% guaranteed.

    2 - Interop DCP - 100% guarantee of DCP working, small potential problems with subtitles.

    3 - SMPTE DCP - less than 100% guarantee of DCP or subtitles working.

    Bottom line is, I would be really interested to see numbers on how many servers in the world remain incompatible with SMPTE DCP's. I changed over to SMPTE for in house work over a year ago because the Doremi's have supported it for a long time. I'd say that's a pretty sizeable chunk of the UK market at least that no longer has any issue with it.

    After that diatribe, I'd say the hopeful answer is go with Interop, make sure your DCP is 100% correct, use a small and simple font and make sure all the characters used in the subtitles are available in the font. This is your path of least resistance. It won't guarantee 100% subtitle success but the % it does provide is considerably higher than the alternative and a lot cheaper than creating hardcode versions of every language and audio.

  • ninettoninetto

    dear rrsduncan, thanks much for a really good overview and very informative post. I have been going the Interop road up until now, but the speed/subtitle shift and increasing pressure to go SMPTE had me rather uneasy. Now you have helped me sleep better at night!

    best, Ninetto M.

Add a Comment